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Bill Burke
10-23-2012, 09:21 AM
So only a month ago we are in danger of burnining up in a forest fire. This morning about 3;44 am I wake up to wolves howling just out side. I didn't see them but they were close. Then to top it off I wake to 3-4 inches of snow and still lightly snowing. well its a good day to forge. Oh pictures of wolves that have been around this part of the country.

markenki
10-23-2012, 09:30 AM
Wow, those are huge. Do you eat the meat?

Bill Burke
10-23-2012, 11:43 AM
I guess you could if you like dog.

mattrud
10-23-2012, 12:08 PM
I guess you could if you like dog.

hahahahhaha

DeepCSweede
10-23-2012, 12:14 PM
Dancing with the stars - Idaho

Those girls are sure hairy in your neck of the woods, Bill.

Eric
10-24-2012, 03:16 AM
Bill: personally I find these photos disturbing and unnecessary.

wenus2
10-24-2012, 03:22 AM
Down with Team Jacob....


I own too many slicers to find dead animals disturbing.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:23 AM
Bill: personally I find these photos disturbing and unnecessary.

I hope you're joking...

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:24 AM
Bill: personally I find these photos disturbing and unnecessary.

You've obviously never had to deal with coy dogs and wolves killing your livestock/maiming your animals.

Eric
10-24-2012, 03:29 AM
Not at all. Dancing with hunted wolves? Give me a break. I respect ones right to their opinions but yes I am disturbed by the photos, that's my opinion.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:29 AM
Btw- I grew up with a houseful of german shepherds, and have lived side by side with dogs of all breeds my entire life. These dogs are far removed from that.

Eric
10-24-2012, 03:31 AM
Actually I am very familiar with the actual data regarding this subject, and find your anecdotal comment typical and uneducated.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:33 AM
Are you a wolf whisperer?

Eric
10-24-2012, 03:34 AM
Btw- I am not looking to argue or change anyone's opinion, we are all entitled, but wanted to share mine

tkern
10-24-2012, 03:35 AM
I don't think its the image that Eric is finding disturbing but the necessity to show it in the first place. Obviously if the wolves are threatening your livelihood or safety you need to take action but just displaying photos as a "hey look I killed this" is un-necessary. Its sort of like having all the bottles of whiskey you've drank displayed on a shelf in the living room.

Eric
10-24-2012, 03:36 AM
Cute. No need to make it personal.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:38 AM
Fair enough. I just don't see any wrong in showcasing your kills. The term 'fair game' rises in this instance. Bill didn't use the term dancing. That was another forum member. Not that I'm judging them for that, just saying.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:43 AM
Cute. No need to make it personal.

I wasn't trying to make it personal. Just poking fun. Nobody takes things too terribly serious around here. A difference of opinion is always welcomed in my book. Welcome to the forums btw:)

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:45 AM
I don't think its the image that Eric is finding disturbing but the necessity to show it in the first place. Obviously if the wolves are threatening your livelihood or safety you need to take action but just displaying photos as a "hey look I killed this" is un-necessary. Its sort of like having all the bottles of whiskey you've drank displayed on a shelf in the living room.

Don't tell all those guys that make a living off of selling trophies that!

tkern
10-24-2012, 03:49 AM
Killing something that doesnt have access.. ability... just being an animal .. to the abundance of technology that we have is show casing skill? I have no problem with people protecting things that help them and their family but dont ask for applause for killing something thats just following its natural instinct.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 03:58 AM
Killing something that doesnt have access.. ability... just being an animal .. to the abundance of technology that we have is show casing skill? I have no problem with people protecting things that help them and their family but dont ask for applause for killing something thats just following its natural instinct.

Ok- I can't speak for Bill's intent on this post. Thats for him to state obviously. It doesn't seem to me as though those were trophy kills honestly(my prior posts not withstanding. I was just kidding around. Sorry if it came across as dickish. I'm a few too many beers in). It appears that he was just using those to illustrate that there is some intimidatingly large wolves in his area, and that hearing them howl outside your window could be a bit harrowing. Especially if you have animals that could be construed as prey to said wolves. But as I said- it's his post not mine.

tkern
10-24-2012, 04:03 AM
Moral of this post: Big wolves suck. Beer and tequila are great ambassadors.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 04:13 AM
Moral of this post: Big wolves suck. Beer and tequila are great ambassadors.

Both of those statements are very subjective. But I will subjectively agree with the latter part. Especially in regards to the part about tequila.(how did you know I was drinking tequila tonight btw...?)

eshua
10-24-2012, 04:36 AM
After working with my brother at a wolf sanctuary in FL, I have mixed feelings. My time there crystallized the fact that wolves can never be pets, and the market that attempts to make them such is more cruel than the hunting of wild wolves.

Working with former ranchers, the credibility of financial and human threat isn't as high as it is with mountain lions, but its not nothing either.

When I lived in Alaska we had a huge tourism industry and a tiny ranching industry, when the poster wolf for the pack at the opening of Denali was killed in 2001, the shooter never came forward, because there was no local sympathy ... on the other hand we did kill and eat grizzly because park officials felt strongly that the population inside the park hadn't picked up any bad habits, and it was worth one kill to keep it that way. Sometimes you have to be the bad guy, and it can be a more ethical decision than eating pounds of pork simply because you don't fancy anthropomorphizing hogs.

Bottom line ... keeping a healthy population with its own space is everyone's shared goal, but strategy for individual cases is best left to local professionals, and not nerds like me.

ecchef
10-24-2012, 05:01 AM
Guys, please let's keep this respectful. Thanks.

cclin
10-24-2012, 06:04 AM
wow!:shocked3: they are much bigger than I thought... I kinda picture wolf just like big German Shepherd!!:spin chair: excuse me but I living in the city all my life. lol:wink:

Salty dog
10-24-2012, 06:43 AM
I agree with Eric. I found the photos disturbing. I always find hunting/trophy photos disturbing. IDK, braggng about killing something doesn't seem right to me. Just this gun toting lefty's opinion.

kalaeb
10-24-2012, 07:27 AM
Last time I saw a wolf was camping in Northern Utah/south idaho and it was just a scrawny litte thing, those are some well fed wolves.

cclin
10-24-2012, 08:49 AM
I agree with Eric. I found the photos disturbing........... IDK, braggng about killing something doesn't seem right to me. Just this gun toting lefty's opinion.

I do not understand why people argue about this:dontknow:?? there are hundred posted pic./video about how to dismembered/killing fish in KKF. :scratchhead:Doesn't all life created equally?? just:my2cents:

Cipcich
10-24-2012, 08:53 AM
I'm with the wolves on this one. Clearly, the subtext was "Dancing With Wolves", and the photos were intended to be amusing.
While I'm sure many found them so, I did not.
There several are regions of this country that, over the years, I have avoided re-visiting; always because of the people, never because of the wildlife.

Bill Burke
10-24-2012, 09:26 AM
Hey Guys. I am Sorry if the photos disturbed anyone. My only intent was to show just HOW BIG THEY ARE. I did not or have I ever killed a wolf. That is not to say if I see one of these BIG ba$t@rd$ in my yard or drive way that I won't shoot it. These wolves since there reintroduction in the 90's have over populated and pretty much decimated the wild herds of dear and elk but also have eaten there fair share of cattle and sheep in the area.
So like brain sausage posted posted I was only trying to convey that is was a little disconcerting to have them so close to the house. they are deffinately not scared of humans cautious yes scared no. I followed they tracks in the fresh snow, around the house under the car port over to the barn and around it and then up the hill.


I also didn't subtitle the photos as "Dancing with wolves" that was someone else's post.

Xuster
10-24-2012, 09:48 AM
You should get a tibetan mastiff, Bill. Supposedly the Tibetans trained them to fight off packs of wolves, not to mention they look awesome.

ecchef
10-24-2012, 10:07 AM
10820
The proper way to dispatch a wolf.

RRLOVER
10-24-2012, 09:22 PM
WOW!! Lots of opinions....so here's mine. If a PREDATOR(human or animal) is either to bold or to stupid to come to my home it will be removed promptly.

brainsausage
10-24-2012, 10:28 PM
WOW!! Lots of opinions....so here's mine. If a PREDATOR(human or animal) is either to bold or to stupid to come to my home it will be removed promptly.

:D

Lucretia
10-26-2012, 02:59 PM
WOW!! Lots of opinions....so here's mine. If a PREDATOR(human or animal) is either to bold or to stupid to come to my home it will be removed promptly.

A different opinion here. WHY is the predator at your home? Have you created an environment attractive to the predator--garbage they can get into, tasty small pets left outside, etc? If you live in an area with a large population of predators, if you don't get rid of what's attracting them, even if you "remove" one, you'll just have another one moving in. Are they coming in on a seasonal basis or just moving through? When we lived in Florida, we had a fancified retention pond at the front of the neighborhood. Every breeding season when the alligators started getting frisky and moving around, we'd end up with a gator in the pond. If you left them alone, they'd stay for several days and move on. This would happen a few times every breeding season. No real reason to kill or remove them--they'd move on soon and the neighborhood would post a sign telling people to watch out for the gator.

Now when you walk into a bathroom at work at o-dark-thirty and see this, there's more of a reason to take action:


http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt79/lucretia_02/Gator2.jpg

Bill Burke
10-26-2012, 08:05 PM
Well with me the wolves are slowly spreding accross the state. they move into an area and bread and expand their pack until the large ungulate population is for the most part wiped out and then they move on to domestic animals and pets. there is also always a few that discover that kittys, puppies, sheep, cows, horses etc are way easier to hunt and kill than deer, elk, moose etc.

Lucretia
10-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Sounds like there are valid reasons for managing the wolf packs in your area. The attitude of "it's a (wolf/gator/panther/snake/etc) KILL IT" without any thought behind it gets on my nerves. Even worse are the folks who feed the animals and get them used to people--they're the ones who really need a kick in the rump.

ecchef
10-26-2012, 08:56 PM
I agree 100% Lucretia.
Humans tend to to some of the most dumb-assed things to upset the natural balance. Maybe we should start culling that herd. :scratchhead:
Oh...and you need a new leash for you gator. :wink:

bikehunter
10-26-2012, 09:09 PM
Sounds like there are valid reasons for managing the wolf packs in your area. The attitude of "it's a (wolf/gator/panther/snake/etc) KILL IT" without any thought behind it gets on my nerves. Even worse are the folks who feed the animals and get them used to people--they're the ones who really need a kick in the rump.

Couldn't agree more Lucretia.

Bill Burke
10-26-2012, 09:47 PM
You are deffinately right, in my opinion Lucretia. I don't think it was necessarily right for wolves to be exterminated in the first place. But it was, again in my opinion worse to spend 13 million per wolf to reintroduce them.


Sounds like there are valid reasons for managing the wolf packs in your area. The attitude of "it's a (wolf/gator/panther/snake/etc) KILL IT" without any thought behind it gets on my nerves. Even worse are the folks who feed the animals and get them used to people--they're the ones who really need a kick in the rump.

Eric
10-26-2012, 09:51 PM
Bill: sorry but I must disagree. In Idaho and elsewhere wolves are very unlikely to attack livestock and in fact the actual rate of predation is 0.01 percent or 1 in ten thousand. Much more livestock is lost to other predators as well as disease. Wolves belong in North America and the ecosystem evolved with them. They actually help maintain a healthy population of prey animals and the only reason the elk population is de clining since the introduction of wolves is because their populations were allowed to grow unchecked for so long without a natural predator. If left alone the predator prey population will reach a healthy sustainable balance and both will be healthier because of it. It is only human arrogance and ignorance to think that they know better than nature. Also lets be honest, it is the hunters of ungulates who want to maintain these unhealthy populations of elk etc. it is much better for the ecosystem to self regulate. Further livestock loses incurred by wolves are are paid for at full market value by funds established in each state as part of wolf reintroduction. In addition there are many effective non lethal ways to minimize wolf predation of livestock and often this is free to ranchers. Idaho has basically sanctioned year round hunting of wolves without responsible limits that if left unchecked will result in unsustainable levels. What a shame, in my opinion, if we allow the wolf to become extinct, again in USA.

RRLOVER
10-26-2012, 10:22 PM
A different opinion here. WHY is the predator at your home? Have you created an environment attractive to the predator--garbage they can get into, tasty small pets left outside, etc? If you live in an area with a large population of predators, if you don't get rid of what's attracting them, even if you "remove" one, you'll just have another one moving in. Are they coming in on a seasonal basis or just moving through? When we lived in Florida, we had a fancified retention pond at the front of the neighborhood. Every breeding season when the alligators started getting frisky and moving around, we'd end up with a gator in the pond. If you left them alone, they'd stay for several days and move on. This would happen a few times every breeding season. No real reason to kill or remove them--they'd move on soon and the neighborhood would post a sign telling people to watch out for the gator.

Now when you walk into a bathroom at work at o-dark-thirty and see this, there's more of a reason to take action:


Live and let Live???............So if a homeless knifemaker moved into your garage you would not remove him because you will just have another one move in,even if it's not breeding season:happy2:

bikehunter
10-26-2012, 10:40 PM
But it was, again in my opinion worse to spend 13 million per wolf to reintroduce them.

Bill, could you please tell me on what you are basing this figure...link or something?

Johnny.B.Good
10-26-2012, 10:44 PM
Working with former ranchers, the credibility of financial and human threat isn't as high as it is with mountain lions, but its not nothing either.

If the article I just read is to be believed, there have only been (2) documented cases of wild wolves killing a human being in North America (as opposed to the 32,885 motor vehicle deaths in the U.S. in 2010 alone).

I'm in favor of letting the wolves be, whenever and wherever it's possible to do so.

Lucretia
10-26-2012, 11:33 PM
Live and let Live???............So if a homeless knifemaker moved into your garage you would not remove him because you will just have another one move in,even if it's not breeding season:happy2:

Haven't had any homeless knifemakers move in. If I liked their wife knives, they might get to stay for a while. :wink: I tend to have more tolerance for critters than people, tho. We often had snakes move in when we lived in Florida. Had a big arse indigo snake (probably 6+) get in the garage one time--came pulling up in the driveway, hit the opener, and there he was right in my parking spot. Ended up playing "Lucretia chases the snake around the garage with a broom"--those suckers are HEAVY when you're trying to scoot them out from under a workbench. They get pretty cranky, too.

Back to the wolves...I remember several occasions where deer herds had become too large to be healthy and wildlife management suggested hunts or merely shooting some of the animals. Seems like there was also some concern about them spreading anthrax. Wasn't reducing herd size part of the logic behind introducing wolves?

Mr. Gator ended up with his jaws taped up with duct tape and tied up before he was hauled away with a fork lift. If you can't fix it with duct tape, it ain't broken.

Bill Burke
10-27-2012, 12:21 AM
Bill: sorry but I must disagree. In Idaho and elsewhere wolves are very unlikely to attack livestock and in fact the actual rate of predation is 0.01 percent or 1 in ten thousand. Much more livestock is lost to other predators as well as disease. Wolves belong in North America and the ecosystem evolved with them. They actually help maintain a healthy population of prey animals and the only reason the elk population is de clining since the introduction of wolves is because their populations were allowed to grow unchecked for so long without a natural predator. If left alone the predator prey population will reach a healthy sustainable balance and both will be healthier because of it. It is only human arrogance and ignorance to think that they know better than nature. Also lets be honest, it is the hunters of ungulates who want to maintain these unhealthy populations of elk etc. it is much better for the ecosystem to self regulate. Further livestock loses incurred by wolves are are paid for at full market value by funds established in each state as part of wolf reintroduction. In addition there are many effective non lethal ways to minimize wolf predation of livestock and often this is free to ranchers. Idaho has basically sanctioned year round hunting of wolves without responsible limits that if left unchecked will result in unsustainable levels. What a shame, in my opinion, if we allow the wolf to become extinct, again in USA.

Eric I used to live in lemhi county Idaho one of the places where wolves were first reintroduced. The elk herd in the area was approximately 45,000 strong. Within three months of reintroduction a rancher who lived in a small comunity 18 miles from Salmon killed a wolf eating one of his cows along the salmon river in sight of state highway 93. I Also have a high school class mate whos family has raised cows less than five miles from the city center of Salmon Idaho for the last 90 years. last year between the two families they lost 32 cows while on their summer range. This compared to less than one a year between the two families before the reintroduction of the wolves. you stated that ranchers are reimbursed for wolf depredation on livestock which is true but there has to be irrefutible proof that a wolf or wolves killed the animal and was not just eating one that was already dead. in the third year of reintroduction the national fish and wildlife service destroyed the phelan creek pack do to cattle predation. there were also at least five family dogs killed and eaten by wolves inside the Salmon city limits three years after reintroduction. my class mate is in constant contact with the USFWS concerning the wolves. the USFWS's answer to these problem wolves is extermination.

I am not trying to start a argument here but these are all facts that I have from first hand knowledge. In addition My wife was county commissioner for lemhi county during the wolf reintroduction and we went to every public meeting and many private meetings before during and after the reintroduction. What you stated above sounds like the same story that was pushed on the public by the USFWS and other groups that has just not proven to be the case. I worked for the Id. dept of fish and game before and during reintroduction. one day prior to reintroduction the office recieved a call from a rancher in the leadore area stating that he had killed a wolf. he was assured that there where no wolves in Idaho at that time. After his insistance that it was a wolf and not a large coyote the rancher brought the "dog" into the office. a wildlife officer looked at it and then was going to issue a citation to the rancher for killing a threatened and endangered species. the rancher had recorded the phone call between himself and the officer where the officer assured the rancher that he could not have possibly killed a wolf because there were no wolves in Idaho so was able to avoid the ticket and prosecution.
I do agrre with you that It is mans arrogance that has caused problems but this goes both ways. It is just as arrogant to reintroduce wolve as it was to exterminate them. As the above story, about the rancher shows there were already wolves in the area but they were shy and elusive and were very seldom seen or heard, when they were it was wrongly assumed that the person/persons reporting the wolf sighting were ignorant and did not knowing what they were talking about. The Canadian grey wolves that were reintroduced are quite a bit larger than the wolves that were historically in the area and also the wolves that where officially not there but apparently really were there. I don't support the Idea that wolves should be completly removed again but I also don't think that they should have been artificially reintroduced/forced on an unwilling population.

Bill Burke
10-27-2012, 12:33 AM
Bill, could you please tell me on what you are basing this figure...link or something?


I just did a quick google search and found that the original cost was about one million dollars per wolf and there were 13 wolves reintroduced into lemhi county. so i was a little confused. I also found that the costs of managment for the first years was 8,400,000 per year. this is, as i said a quick google search and is probably not exact

Bill Burke
10-27-2012, 12:39 AM
If the article I just read is to be believed, there have only been (2) documented cases of wild wolves killing a human being in North America (as opposed to the 32,885 motor vehicle deaths in the U.S. in 2010 alone).

I'm in favor of letting the wolves be, whenever and wherever it's possible to do so.

I agree but one thing the documented wolf kills have happened since the introduction of the canadian grey wolf in 1995.

brainsausage
10-27-2012, 12:52 AM
Bill: sorry but I must disagree. In Idaho and elsewhere wolves are very unlikely to attack livestock and in fact the actual rate of predation is 0.01 percent or 1 in ten thousand. Much more livestock is lost to other predators as well as disease. Wolves belong in North America and the ecosystem evolved with them. They actually help maintain a healthy population of prey animals and the only reason the elk population is de clining since the introduction of wolves is because their populations were allowed to grow unchecked for so long without a natural predator. If left alone the predator prey population will reach a healthy sustainable balance and both will be healthier because of it. It is only human arrogance and ignorance to think that they know better than nature. Also lets be honest, it is the hunters of ungulates who want to maintain these unhealthy populations of elk etc. it is much better for the ecosystem to self regulate. Further livestock loses incurred by wolves are are paid for at full market value by funds established in each state as part of wolf reintroduction. In addition there are many effective non lethal ways to minimize wolf predation of livestock and often this is free to ranchers. Idaho has basically sanctioned year round hunting of wolves without responsible limits that if left unchecked will result in unsustainable levels. What a shame, in my opinion, if we allow the wolf to become extinct, again in USA.

Not trying to fan the fire, but some credible links to those figures, as well as some posted by others, would lend some credence...

ecchef
10-27-2012, 12:53 AM
Closed at O.P.'s request.