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ChiliPepper
10-28-2012, 11:10 PM
Hi ya

long time lurker, I wanted to say you guys rock: a great community!

To the question, I now have the following two combi stones:

Tojiro-rebranded (dunno OEM) 240/1000
Sun Tiger (maybe same as King?) 1000/6000



These have been my first stone purchase and I must say I can now get my knives decently sharp on them, at least for my practical needs (let's say arm air shaving kinda sharp). But they are ugly: blades all scratched up :D
I've never played with levels of kasumi finish, mirror polishing and so on but it all sounds fun. I'd be happy to practice with these techniques at some stage.

The first issue/question I have is that it seems to me that the 6000 takes ages to produce the faintest appearance of mud (I aint got a nagura, if that matters) and same, to a lesser degree, with the 1000.
And this happens both if I let the stone soak for an hour or if I try splash-and-go.
So usually I get my knife sharpened and deburred, ready to proceed before any good amount of mud is produced.
So, is it all my fault or the stones are known for not being mud-prone?

Second thing is that I'm kinda wondering if, for normal maintenance, I could rely on a single stone, which would be nice. This got into my mind after reading positive comments about the Naniwa Green brick Aoto (the synthetic one), as being sort of a one-stop-shop stone that supposedly "cuts like a 1000ish" and "finishes as 4000ish".

I'd appreciate any thoughts and comments you may have! Thanks in advance!

chinacats
10-29-2012, 12:33 AM
Just a few comments...the Naniwa is nice for finishing European knives, but I don't use it in my normal progression on J-blades. As to using one stone, often the only thing I use for sharpening is my Gesshin 5k splash and go...that may be changing as I seem to be getting more use lately of my felt strop loaded with 'diamond juice.' I'm sure you will get better info, but hope this helps.

Cheers

Canadian
10-29-2012, 01:49 AM
Hi ya

long time lurker, I wanted to say you guys rock: a great community!

To the question, I now have the following two combi stones:

Tojiro-rebranded (dunno OEM) 240/1000
Sun Tiger (maybe same as King?) 1000/6000



These have been my first stone purchase and I must say I can now get my knives decently sharp on them, at least for my practical needs (let's say arm air shaving kinda sharp). But they are ugly: blades all scratched up :D
I've never played with levels of kasumi finish, mirror polishing and so on but it all sounds fun. I'd be happy to practice with these techniques at some stage.

The first issue/question I have is that it seems to me that the 6000 takes ages to produce the faintest appearance of mud (I aint got a nagura, if that matters) and same, to a lesser degree, with the 1000.
And this happens both if I let the stone soak for an hour or if I try splash-and-go.
So usually I get my knife sharpened and deburred, ready to proceed before any good amount of mud is produced.
So, is it all my fault or the stones are known for not being mud-prone?

Second thing is that I'm kinda wondering if, for normal maintenance, I could rely on a single stone, which would be nice. This got into my mind after reading positive comments about the Naniwa Green brick Aoto (the synthetic one), as being sort of a one-stop-shop stone that supposedly "cuts like a 1000ish" and "finishes as 4000ish".

I'd appreciate any thoughts and comments you may have! Thanks in advance!

Theoretically you could get by with just one stone. I think a 1k followed by a trail strop on newspaper would be fine.

However, I like to have two stones--medium and fine. I usually stop after 1k for my slicers and go up to 4k for everything else.

You definitely do not need more than two stones if you are not doing any heavy metal removal. Even then, I gave up on coarse stones a long time ago. I've never had to use them and if I really need to re-profile or repair a knife I will take it to the belt grinder.

A medium/fine combi stone will do everything you want.

I understand this might be different for single bevels, and I admit I know nothing when it comes to sharpening them.

But for western style knives, it's hard to argue with Murray Carter.

ChiliPepper
10-29-2012, 03:52 AM
Theoretically you could get by with just one stone. I think a 1k followed by a trail strop on newspaper would be fine.

However, I like to have two stones--medium and fine. I usually stop after 1k for my slicers and go up to 4k for everything else.

You definitely do not need more than two stones if you are not doing any heavy metal removal. Even then, I gave up on coarse stones a long time ago. I've never had to use them and if I really need to re-profile or repair a knife I will take it to the belt grinder.

A medium/fine combi stone will do everything you want.

I understand this might be different for single bevels, and I admit I know nothing when it comes to sharpening them.

But for western style knives, it's hard to argue with Murray Carter.

True indeed but again the guy can sharpen blades just by looking at them...

ChiliPepper
10-29-2012, 03:56 AM
Just a few comments...the Naniwa is nice for finishing European knives, but I don't use it in my normal progression on J-blades. As to using one stone, often the only thing I use for sharpening is my Gesshin 5k splash and go...that may be changing as I seem to be getting more use lately of my felt strop loaded with 'diamond juice.' I'm sure you will get better info, but hope this helps.

Cheers

Interesting: why would it be good especially for european knives? Does that stone only work well with low hardness alloys?

tk59
10-29-2012, 10:26 AM
If you want to experiment with finishes, you should get a Suehiro Rika 5k or a med-soft J-nat. I like the Awasedo I got from Jon, particularly. Naniwa (both superstones and choseras) work well for pretty much all knives although superstones are a bit touchy and slower than average. The best all around synthetics I've tried are the Gesshin soaker series (400-2k-4k).

chinacats
10-29-2012, 11:15 AM
Interesting: why would it be good especially for european knives? Does that stone only work well with low hardness alloys?

Not so sure why, but sure doesn't work too well on my harder steel knives...stone is waaaay over rated at some retailer sites...mushy/chalky comes to mind.
Cheers!

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/7177-Strange-behavior-of-the-Naniwa-Aotoshi?highlight=Naniwa+Aotoshi

tk59
10-29-2012, 07:47 PM
Not so sure why, but sure doesn't work too well on my harder steel knives...stone is waaaay over rated at some retailer sites...mushy/chalky comes to mind.
Cheers!

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/7177-Strange-behavior-of-the-Naniwa-Aotoshi?highlight=Naniwa+AotoshiI don't know the "Atoshi" but the Superstones and Choseras are pretty good stones and work well on all but the most wear resistant steels.

chinacats
10-29-2012, 09:17 PM
I don't know the "Atoshi" but the Superstones and Choseras are pretty good stones and work well on all but the most wear resistant steels.

The aotoshi is also known as the green brick and sold at that site that we don't talk about. It is nowhere near the Chosera or Superstones in quality.

tk59
10-29-2012, 10:27 PM
The aotoshi is also known as the green brick and sold at that site that we don't talk about. It is nowhere near the Chosera or Superstones in quality.Ah! The green brick, I do know. Thanks. :)

ChiliPepper
10-30-2012, 06:15 AM
thanks for your input guys, that's much appreciated!
So if I correctly interpret your thoughts that green brick is more a thing of hype rather than performance and my best bet to improve and experiment would be to stick with Rika, Chosera and Gesshin stones. (Bester maybe?)
I'm not so sure about JNats, they kind of "intimidate" me, meaning they cost quite a bit and I'm not sure I've got skills to fully appreciate them.

How would you suggest I enrich my current setup, i.e. - if you had to buy one or max two stones on top of what I've got what would you go for and why?

If that helps my knives are a Hattori HD gyuto (vg10@61 hrc), a Yoshikane petty (SKD11@64 hrc) and a Felix german chefs (x50CrMoV15@?)

chinacats
10-30-2012, 10:54 AM
Having a knife heat treated to 64 is something that i am unfamiliar with, I would talk to Jon at JKI and see what advice he would offer.

Schtoo
10-30-2012, 11:28 AM
I can't give you a recommendation of which stones but...



a Yoshikane petty (SKD11@64 hrc)

... makes me think you're going to run into the limits of what some stones are capable of dealing with effectively.

Granted, it's not a big knife which works to your advantage when sharpening it, but the abrasion resistance and relatively high hardness may pose some difficulties and you may be working away for longer on a stone than is optimal.

Of course, there are some folks that can sharpen anything with anything and technique can make up for a stone that pushed beyond it's comfort zone.

Speaking only for myself, when I find a stone that runs out of go, I stop using it and go with something that I know will get the task done. I have that luxury, but not everyone does.

Stu.

pitonboy
10-30-2012, 11:59 AM
J nats are probably not a good first choice for the steels you mention. What do you want to do that your current setup doesn't do? If you want to repair bevels, obviously go coarse; if you want and finer edge, then a finished. If you would specify your perceived current shortcomings, then we might be able to give our two cents' worth.

tk59
10-30-2012, 04:11 PM
These stones work fine on Yoshikane SKD's. They are hrc 62-64, iirc. Not too bad. I have sharpened zdp-189 at 64+ and not had a problem with any of these stones. The only problem steels I have run into are the S35VN (I believe.) used by Haslinger and Devin's SWR. Those guys do respond but are very slow to abrade.

ChiliPepper
10-30-2012, 07:04 PM
J nats are probably not a good first choice for the steels you mention. What do you want to do that your current setup doesn't do? If you want to repair bevels, obviously go coarse; if you want and finer edge, then a finished. If you would specify your perceived current shortcomings, then we might be able to give our two cents' worth.

Hey piton, my perceived shortcomings are that current stones (especially the 6000) are very reluctant to give up mud, either used splash-and-go or after 1 hour soaking. The 6000 also gives a "skiddy" feeling, feels a bit like working on a glassy surface with no proper feedback or attrition, if that makes sense.
The only time I'm able to create mud is when (after soaking) I rub together the 1000 grit sides of the two combi to flatten them.
It's no joy when I try to create mud just with a blade.
I haven't tried to flatten the 6000 grit side with the other 1000: would that be a good thing to do or the 6000 might become "contaminated" with bigger particles?

ChiliPepper
10-30-2012, 07:14 PM
I can't give you a recommendation of which stones but...


Speaking only for myself, when I find a stone that runs out of go, I stop using it and go with something that I know will get the task done. I have that luxury, but not everyone does.

Stu.

Hey Stu, that's ok: I'm happy to add one or two stones (max) to my setup, it's just that I'm not 100% sure which ones.
It seems that my initial idea to go for something like the Naniwa Green brick as a single stone solution is not that flash after all and I have thanks to you folks a few brands to choose from but still I'm confused as what would benefit me most.
If I had to write down the questions I ask myself it would be something like: should I get a better 1000? an intermediate 2000? a 5000 before my current 6000? a 8000 to use as last step? Just replace my current stuff at same grit level with better brands?
Not easy for me. Maybe I should just concentrate on practicing more! :)

bluntcut
10-30-2012, 07:17 PM
If that helps my knives are a Hattori HD gyuto (vg10@61 hrc), a Yoshikane petty (SKD11@64 hrc) and a Felix german chefs (x50CrMoV15@?)

For Yoshikane SKD11/D2 @64rc knives, I found edges off diamond plates & compounds sharper and last longer than using waterstones.

keithsaltydog
11-01-2012, 06:21 PM
I had a slick polishing stone,I gave it away.A little freehand skill goes a long way,much more than buying alot of stones.Broken record here,but the 1200 Bester is better than the green brick as a one stone setup.The Rika 5K is not slick at all,has great feedback.

There are many freehand tutorals on the web.Jon at JKI and Martell has one of the better DVD's.