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tgraypots
04-25-2011, 12:12 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on Mark Richmond's new Addict's?
Thanks-Tom

Pensacola Tiger
04-25-2011, 12:28 PM
The Richmond Addict production models are just shipping now, so any impressions are of the prototypes that were going around, but that's really not a good indicator of the production models.

I have one of the unhandled prototypes that was ground by Eddy White, and it was not particularly thin behind the edge. As a result, performance suffered. It took me several hours of grinding to bring it even close to acceptable, but that's what a prototype is for. I will say that the Addict's profile is pretty nice, with a tall heel.

I'm hoping Lamson Goodnow does a better grind on the production models. For the price, it looks to be a pretty good value.

Rick

Lefty
04-25-2011, 01:02 PM
I've never used the Addict, but it looks pretty nice to me. It's made with a good, reliable steel (better than vg10 to some, worse to others).
Mark is a smart guy and he knows what people like/want. He thought about a nice flat profile for the first, what looks to be) 3-4", and offering a nice Rosewood handle for only $20 more.
My only concern is, I personally don't like overly tall knives and I feel 55mm would be too much for me. I have the belief that 50mm is basically perfect for a 240 gyuto, BUT others will disagree depending on their cutting style and hand size.
I hold my knife VERY lightly, so I can get away (and love) 40mm at the heel for many knives.
If a person prefers a Suji, I don't imagine the Addict will be up their alley, but for those who like a big, yet thin knife (think Takeda), I think the Addict looks very nice.
Only time will tell....

99Limited
04-25-2011, 01:22 PM
I bought one w/o a handle last Friday, got my shipping notification a few minutes ago. I'll see how I like it compared to my other knives. I had a couple of PM's with Mark and he seemed pretty happy with the results. This guy has staked his name and reputation on this knife and with this hardcore group of knife fanatics, that takes guts.

oivind_dahle
04-25-2011, 01:34 PM
For me it looks like a Watanabe replica.
And all here knows Watanabe makes hell of a knife, but is to reactive. If Mark have got the same profile and geometry as Watanabe Im sure it will be a great knife. Im looking forward to reviews, but as with all other knife reviews written by a forum member its probably the best knife in the world. Hopefully are more objective person will write a review so we for sure can tell if this is heaven or hell.

I have no fight with Mark however, as others at KKF might have. For me Mark has always been polite and helpful, so I wish him the best.

Pensacola Tiger
04-25-2011, 01:47 PM
I bought one w/o a handle last Friday, got my shipping notification a few minutes ago. I'll see how I like it compared to my other knives. I had a couple of PM's with Mark and he seemed pretty happy with the results. This guy has staked his name and reputation on this knife and with this hardcore group of knife fanatics, that takes guts.

I'm looking forward to your impressions, especially regarding how thin yours is behind the edge.

Rick

El Pescador
04-25-2011, 04:30 PM
I spoke at length with Mark about this knife. Bottom line this guy knows knives. Took a good shape and made it out of good steel....at a great price. $170 barely covers the cost of a Stephan handle w/ shipping. This is a hell of a deal.

Pesky

Marko Tsourkan
04-25-2011, 04:34 PM
I spoke at length with Mark about this knife. Bottom line this guy knows knives. Took a good shape and made it out of good steel.

Pesky

You get what you pay for.

El Pescador
04-25-2011, 05:53 PM
You get what you pay for.
So true...if you throw out economies of scale. I'm not saying it the best knife ever, but a good dealt that price point.

Pesky

Marko Tsourkan
04-25-2011, 08:52 PM
Some food for thought.

Knife making is like eating out - you can have a meal in a small restaurant ($$-$$$) or a large cafeteria ($-$$) where you have many economies of scale.

A friend of mine (a member here) told me once something that stuck with me for the rest of my life. He said "out of three things - price, quality, and customer service, you get to choose two". So each of us decides what is important to each of us.

M

tk59
04-26-2011, 01:33 AM
I'm sure there's a reason for putting the "p" in cpm. Nevertheless, I'm curious just not curious enough to buy one. I'd like some behind the edge measurements myself as well as spine thickness 1 and 2 cm from the tip.

Salty dog
04-26-2011, 08:35 AM
The specs on it look good. And I am slightly surprised by the price. I thought it would be a little higher.

The question I have is how the grind is? I've been seeing some flat blades lately. Not crazy about the pudgy tip area either but that's just me.

Marko Tsourkan
04-26-2011, 08:44 AM
Not crazy either.

M

Cadillac J
04-26-2011, 09:30 AM
I don't like the blade shape at all, and have zero interest in acquiring one...yet I'm still curious to see how these turn out.

stereo.pete
04-26-2011, 09:33 AM
So far there have been a lot of great points that have been brought up. One more thing that I would like to add is that Mark looks to be positioning his knife at a price point that is uncommon for a wa-gyuto. It will be even more interesting if he is able to present said knife with good quality fit and finish at this price point and if he is able to accomplish this I think he has brought something useful to the market.

tk59
04-26-2011, 10:20 AM
I wonder how it feels to hold it, too. The handle looks like it's mounted high since the machi/tang is so small.

NO ChoP!
04-26-2011, 10:53 AM
I have purchased many a knife from Mark. I can attest his customer service is top notch; I often receive my knives next day via fed ex, at no charge! He is easy to contact and personally answers his phone. He has done a terrific job building an awesome website, and keeping stocked with great product. I applaud his efforts to bring US a well made knife, at a very reasonable price; and I am sure this was his intent. It is as much a service to US, as it is a sound business decision to him. Hate the man for being business savvy? These are the concepts this country was built on.... competition is healthy; competition will only benefit US, the consumers. Everyone must step-up their game.....

Marko Tsourkan
04-26-2011, 11:05 AM
I hate to be drawn in arguments like these, but you are forcing my hand.
Ever heard of dumping? Why 'live and let live' is so hard for some to accept?

I have been longer around on forums than you (NoChop) and I know what I am talking about. I also know knives, and know who knows about knives and who doesn't. And who doesn't know how to sharpen. So when I hear comments like "he knows about knives", what are you basing this on? A phone conversation? YouTube videos? Show me the beef!

I am not being a snob, but I am being tired of folks who haven't done much with their hands, who don't know what makes a good knife, who don't know how to sharpen, yet they get on public forums and offer their "expert" opinion which is repeating somebody else's opinion.

Learn something from guys who know their stuff. Want me to list them? Here: Jon, Dave, Bill, Devin, Niloc and list can go on and on. If you read posts carefully, you would know who they are.

M

Dave Martell
04-26-2011, 11:34 AM
For Mark this is brilliant and fits his business model.....make a cheap knife cheaply.....sell many....make very little$ on each knife. Add many cheap products together in a web store, lower the prices to rock bottom, you then add all the low profits made off of each item together and you have an internet success story.

Remember that Mark has no investment in these knives besides his money, no sweat & blood, he only needs to make a few $$ to make money on them. Again it's about grouping a ton of products together and low balling the prices of said products to make the $$ through volume sales. Quality is a secondary concern to quantity here.

I actually wish Mark success with this venture, I figure that there's a need for cheap knives just like there's a need for higher end knives and I'd rather let him put his name on the cheap ones than to have to do that myself.

SpikeC
04-26-2011, 11:49 AM
Doesn't he use a phone answering service now? I heard that he didn't want to use his time answering the phone, so he has a company do it for him.

Dave Martell
04-26-2011, 12:10 PM
BTW, if anyone else is interested in making their own line of knives cheaply this is how it's done, using robots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_9QLgI6f7w


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_9QLgI6f7w

Marko Tsourkan
04-26-2011, 12:19 PM
Fascinating. :ohmy:

bprescot
04-26-2011, 12:26 PM
I hesitate to wade into this one because I am aware that passions can run high around certain issues and characters, but at the end of the day, what you're arguing over is the best way to run a business. There are successful business owners that know the ins and outs of all of their products, the roles or their employees, and the needs of their end-users, and then there are those that take a 50,000 foot view, relying on others to get them the knowledge they need in order to sell product. Which you are will depend a lot on the size of your business, or rather, the size you want your business to be. I know plenty of guys that have started as one and migrated to the other as their business grew. Neither approach is right or wrong. Among a crowd (myself included) that likes the idea of the elder bladesmith sitting atop Mt Fuji honing his honyaki blade on 10,000 yr old 10K stones, soaked in mermaid tears and Elysian ambrosia, the 50K foot view approach won't be preferred, but it's not invalid.

Regarding the knives, they're not one of a kind, hand-forged knives, and I don't think they're intended to be. They're factory knives. Smaller production, probably, with a few more bells and whistles, but still, they're mass-produced for the mass market. Kinda like TKCs, DPs, Aritsugus, and countless other blades that I use and appreciate. I'm not going to ding them just for that. Not every blade needs to have some sort of special significance in order for me to like or use it. I still use my forschners every day for Pete's sake.

And if the objection is the marketing and hype-generation, hey. Dude's got business savvy. That stuff didn't work on me for the Evercut and it won't here either. Though I guess I can understand the objection to the expert statement. I mean, I'm around plaster teeth all day. It doesn't make me a dentist. Just because a person is around blades all day doesn't necessarily make them a bladesmith. But it might give them a good idea as to what type of blade might sell. And once again we're back to the "what type of business owner" question.

Anyhoo, just my $.02.

ecchef
04-26-2011, 12:53 PM
I'll say one thing...the robot shop seems like a nice, quiet place to work!

All in all, it doesn't really matter what CKTG does. Caveat emptor.
Prospective buyers will research a product until they're satisfied with the amount of information they have, then make a decision. If they ask the right questions in the right places, then they'll eventually find resources like Gator's interactive steel charts, Salty's, Niloc's, and others vids & reviews, Dave's treasury of knowledge of stones and sharpening, etc., etc.
If they don't, well then hopefully they will learn from the experience. :headbonk:

To paraphrase what you said, Dave, 'better them than me'.

tk59
04-26-2011, 01:41 PM
The free-market economy is a system. We all do what we can to use it to our advantage in some way or another. It pervades our society and the way we live as individuals in more ways than we might think and far more profoundly than many of us would care to admit. Regardless, if it's a good knife at a good price and that's what I was looking for, I'd buy it and recommend it.

BTW, that robot is freaking cool.

Marko Tsourkan
04-26-2011, 01:47 PM
Now I get it. Walmartization of America is a good thing. As is outsourcing, subcontracting, etc. Bring the price down and everybody wins. Look around you, only happy faces around you. :)
And this will conclude my posting in this thread.

tk59
04-26-2011, 02:11 PM
I'm not sure where your sarcasm is directed, Marko. Obviously, everyone doesn't win. It's more of an unfortunate, unintended (or not) consequence of the system design. It would take some sort of miracle to go about living in this country without taking advantage of it in any way, either directly or indirectly.

ecchef
04-26-2011, 02:32 PM
Now I get it. Walmartization of America is a good thing. As is outsourcing, subcontracting, etc. Bring the price down and everybody wins. Look around you, only happy faces around you. :)
And this will conclude my posting in this thread.

I've feel that way too Marko. Short of becoming anarchists, what can we do about it? It's the reality, sad but true.

The BoardSMITH
04-26-2011, 02:41 PM
Quality, price and customer service? I'll add one more.....EXPERIENCE! Quality and price go hand-in-hand and quality can't be obtained without experience. Experience is slowly obtained by practice and work, not gotten in a month or a year of occasionally dabbling at whatever. You do get what you pay for even if it can't be seen!

bprescot
04-26-2011, 02:45 PM
What I fail to see is how the Addict (horrible name, btw) differs from, say, the TKC where an OEM mass produces a blade, Ichimonji takes it stamps it's logo on it, Kikuichi takes it, stamps it's logo on it, etc. How is that not commoditization (or walmartization) any less than the Addict? Granted, I'd buy the TKC and not the Addict, but that's not the point here. It just seems like this knife is vilified for being mass-produced, yet other knives in the same situation (DP anyone?) are held up as being awesome. Even the Hiro AS's are mass-produced blades, yet many here own, use, and enjoy them. I just don't feel like the Addict's assembly line nature should be a reason to dismiss the thing.

The reason I'm not really interested has more to do with the profile and steel choice. Something about that tip bothers the hell out of me and I've not enjoyed the few 154 knives I've tried. For some reason that little p makes a big change, for reasons beyond my understanding.

-Ben

SpikeC
04-26-2011, 03:05 PM
I'm not seeing any vilification of this knife here, just honest opinions about the shape and grind of a prototype.

bprescot
04-26-2011, 03:19 PM
Sorry. you are absolutely right. I got lost in my own rhetoric. :slaphead:

Would it be fair to say that the commodity nature has been listed on this thread as a negative? My point is only that this is also true of most of the knives I own, and most of those were recommend by members here. Seems an unusual critique to me is all. Especially given the price point.

chazmtb
04-26-2011, 03:54 PM
Here is my take on this issue

My wife owns a high end retail optical and optometry business. When we first started, me being a cheap a$$, want to try to cut cost, and skimp on everything. She along the way would not have any of that. I am starting to understand.

For us, being cheap doesn't work. You try to be smart with your money, but for us as a small business, we can't compete against the least common denominator that is Walmarts or $99 for two pairs of glasses and an exam type of business (which will try to upsell you like no tomorrow).

Two issues. It cheapens our product and the reputation my wife has built up, which is great service and health care.
We will also lose because those guys don't care, and they can do it cheaper than you can. They buy their frames for $5 and lenses for $2, have horrible customer service at the optical (a lot of times, cutting the lenses incorrectly and not what the prescription calls for), and the doctor sees them for only 3 minutes for their glass prescription, not worrying about the health of their eyes. Most people who go there look at cost, but don't truly know the actual costs.

For us to differentiate, we have to educate our patients and clients on what it is to have quality, customer service, and great care with the latest most advanced technical equipment (all is very expensive). It is unfortunate that the walmart effect is the norm, because people don't know any better, and have never been educated to what is quality, service and customer support after the sale. I had a machine that cuts the glasses go down last month because it was not cutting the lense correctly and not giving the fit and finish that a high end place is accustomed to. It would probably be OK for the walmart clientel, but we decided to make an investment and spend 30K on a new machine. I just wrote that check this morning and it really hurts, but in the end, we believe that is what our customers deserve.

Now, I am not saying that this particular knife (I have not had a chance to play with it) is worth the price or quality. Someone mentioned the Walmart effect, and I just had to rant (because there is a walmart right down the street from us).

As people who want to differentiate themselves from the masses, care about your products, and are craftsmen and artist you have to have conviction that quality will prevail, and have to educate your customers on the virtues of quality and customer service.

Sorry, I had to just rant a little bit. Probably because I just wrote a big check.

WildBoar
04-26-2011, 04:11 PM
crap -- I just wrote the perfect post that would have wrapped up this whole thead, and a glitch in the INterwebz sent it into a black hole before all of you guys could tell me to stuff it :laugh:

In my eyes, there are some benefits to having access to 52" LED LCD TVs for $1,400. That gives me more discrescionary funds to support craftsmen in industries I select for my needs, such as knives, construction, etc. So while some jobs go away, other new ones open up.

(I should add I knew when I saw the initial post this thread would get a little interesting... I was wondering if Dave would turn into a magician and make it disappear) :jumping:

SpikeC
04-26-2011, 04:24 PM
I think that Wallymart is the wrong comparison here. We are talking about knives that cost over $100. after all. The fact that the different processes of the Addict are farmed out to different specialists is neither good nor bad, it is just a way to get something to market at a specific price point. Remember that the Amazon shoppers consider Rachel's knives to be expensive! I won't be buying any, but I like that they are available sans handle and somewhat customizable, so that they can be brought to a higher level if one wishes.
In the end they sink or swim on their own merits.

chazmtb
04-26-2011, 04:25 PM
David, I agree with you, most electronics depreciate, and cost goes of the products go down. I tend to go cheap becaues I know it will depreciate. However, I would rather buy from Costco than Sams, because I just don't like their business model. In that way, I get to support something with a little better customer service. That's why I would go to Target rather than Walmart and spend a little more for better customer service.

I really hate Walmart, if you couldn't really tell.

bprescot
04-26-2011, 04:28 PM
Friend of mine works in our local Walmart pharmacy. If there Optometry is anything similar, they aren't doing any favors to their customers. Seriously, she has some true horror stories.

tk59
04-26-2011, 04:31 PM
Interesting you brought up Costco. That reminds me I have a friend in furniture business who absolutely despises working with them for similar economic reasons.

Jameson
04-26-2011, 07:28 PM
For Mark this is brilliant and fits his business model.....make a cheap knife cheaply.....sell many....make very little$ on each knife. Add many cheap products together in a web store, lower the prices to rock bottom, you then add all the low profits made off of each item together and you have an internet success story.

Remember that Mark has no investment in these knives besides his money, no sweat & blood, he only needs to make a few $$ to make money on them. Again it's about grouping a ton of products together and low balling the prices of said products to make the $$ through volume sales. Quality is a secondary concern to quantity here.

I actually wish Mark success with this venture, I figure that there's a need for cheap knives just like there's a need for higher end knives and I'd rather let him put his name on the cheap ones than to have to do that myself.


Agreed.

Salty dog
04-26-2011, 07:36 PM
Here comes one.......

Racine, WI is widely known for producing Danish Kringle.There are four bakeries that make kringle. O&H is the largest and most popular. Food channel has been there, Obama has been there etc. Bendtsens bakery however makes the best kringle. They are the only ones who still do it by hand the old school way. If I want a cake I'll go to O&H but if I want kringle I'll go across town to Bendtsens.

The owner BTW is the guy who makes the kringle. He is an avid golfer, has a comfortable lifestyle and a full membership to the Country Club. Not bad.

mano
04-26-2011, 07:40 PM
The issues, IIRC are opinions about the Addict knife and "you get what you pay for."

I think people are responding both negatively and positively to the hyperbole surrounding the knife. The pre-release marketing made it appear to be more than what it is: an entry-level production wa guyoto at $170 with rosewood and $150 without. Mark created a perception of a higher-end knife without ever saying it was.

If I hadn't bought a Carbonext, which probably is of similar quality, profit margin and about the same price, I'd be very interested in that Addict. There are lots of similar knives at that price point and it's unrealistic to think any of them are exceptional.

When the time comes to buy a better knife I'll have to spend a lot more and have Jon Broida guide me.

RRLOVER
04-26-2011, 07:50 PM
Here comes one.......

Racine, WI is widely known for producing Danish Kringle.There are four bakeries that make kringle. O&H is the largest and most popular. Food channel has been there, Obama has been there etc. Bendtsens bakery however makes the best kringle. They are the only ones who still do it by hand the old school way. If I want a cake I'll go to O&H but if I want kringle I'll go across town to Bendtsens.

The owner BTW is the guy who makes the kringle. He is an avid golfer, has a comfortable lifestyle and a full membership to the Country Club. Not bad.



DAMN IT!!!! Now I am jonesing for a bendtsens kringle:bashhead:

Pensacola Tiger
04-26-2011, 07:53 PM
DAMN IT!!!! Now I am jonesing for a bendtsens kringle:bashhead:

So am I, and I've never had one from Bendtsen's. Do they deliver?

RRLOVER
04-26-2011, 07:56 PM
So am I, and I've never had one from Bendtsen's. Do they deliver?

As a matter of fact they do:lol2:

Andrew H
04-26-2011, 09:00 PM
And peace was made in the search of kringle!

Dave Martell
04-26-2011, 09:38 PM
What's a kringle?

Andrew H
04-26-2011, 09:40 PM
What's a kringle?

What is this blasphemy?

Mattias504
04-26-2011, 09:44 PM
What is this blasphemy?




I'm with Dave on this one.

bprescot
04-26-2011, 09:58 PM
I'm with Dave on this one.

Yep. No clue over here either.

Eamon Burke
04-26-2011, 10:03 PM
I have to say, the reasons I wouldn't buy this knife is because of my intense drive to localize. Heck, I've even trained my Hulu account to only play ads for Texas-based businesses.

I got my first two knives, both Japanese, because I spent months searching and couldn't find anything comparable that is American. So I bought Japanese from a American sources(CKTG and a seller on eBay). If I knew of a guy making knives around here, I'd probably buy one. I know you can't make a living making knives(stock removal even) one at a time and selling them for $100. But you can do it as part of an integrated business, and if you make them in batches. No, they won't be mind-blowing, but neither were my first knives--but they are still better than any of the crap I've work around or seen in a house.

Buy local, and you won't have to figure all this stuff out. I used Bank of America, nothing but trouble. Now I bank with a bank who's headquarters are 2 blocks from my house. Never a problem, and very lenient. Not once have they pointed to the computer to blame it for my problems. Same goes with knives, sharpening, or anything.

Salty dog
04-26-2011, 10:05 PM
http://www.bendtsensbakery.com/catalog/1

RRLOVER
04-26-2011, 10:11 PM
What's a kringle?

If RayRay was naked and had a bendtsen kringle on her......you would not know which one you wanted to bite first.

Mattias504
04-26-2011, 10:15 PM
http://www.bendtsensbakery.com/catalog/1


Interesting. Looks like a king cake without the icing.

Dave Martell
04-26-2011, 10:17 PM
If RayRay was naked and had a bendtsen kringle on her......you would not know which one you wanted to bite first.

Damn....that's a tricky one :biggrin2:

bprescot
04-26-2011, 10:41 PM
Interesting. Looks like a king cake without the icing.

Funny. I was about to say a Paris-Brest without the whipped cream or custard. Now I have to look up what the heck a king cake is.

Andrew H
04-26-2011, 10:52 PM
It looks exactly like a kringle to me :lol2: If you haven't had one you really need to order one from them, they are extremely good. I like them heated up with coffee in the morning, but cold from the fridge as a midnight snack works just as well :thumbsup:

Mattias504
04-26-2011, 11:12 PM
https://www.randazzokingcake.com/

The best king cake in NOLA. They ship, too.

stereo.pete
04-27-2011, 02:08 AM
I love this forum so much. The tangent with the bakeries is absolutely fantastic! I can't wait to order a Kringle and a King Cake in the next month and I shall start with a Kringle.

Chef Niloc
04-27-2011, 02:11 AM
Who's making those knives for him? Lamson? It companies like that thet put us knives on the bottom of the list, them and Dexter.

NO ChoP!
04-27-2011, 10:16 AM
I actually wish Mark success with this venture, I figure that there's a need for cheap knives just like there's a need for higher end knives and I'd rather let him put his name on the cheap ones than to have to do that myself.

Commendable, for sure. Although, I am not sure the likes of Takeda, Moritaka, Konosuke, Tadatsuna, Masamoto, Watanabe should be called "cheap". I never said anything about Marks knowledge (Marko?), just his business savvy. But, no one can deny, that he has made it easy and affordable to purchase knives. I really don't know about the "fallout", nor do I care.

I am a family man with four kids. My passion is cooking. I have been a chef for 20+ years. I like nice knives. My budget isn't sky high, as I like to cloth and feed my kids. Although, I absolutely love to look at the craftsmanship of above mentioned, it's not very practical for all. Am I being hung because I cannot afford $400 ++++ on a knife? I am sorry, but, although I like to look at a nice handle, it isn't practical for me in a pro kitchen.

So do you guys not want people on your forum that can only afford "cheap" knives? Because thats how you are coming off....

These kind of attacks are uncalled for, are childish, and show no restraint. Grow up!

NO ChoP!
04-27-2011, 10:46 AM
I'd like to add, that my next purchase will probably be through JBroida‎, as his fortay seems to be guiding people through custom orders; he has been getting Kono HD's with stabilized handles, and I will soon be in the market for a 270 suji (have to save first...), I also like the blonde ferrules. And, he as well, has been very respectful and helpful via facebook and forum posts. Everyone has their own niche, and position; thats smart business.

Honestly, compairing CKTG to Walmart is unfair. It says that he is hurting others business. This is not true. CKTG will spark the interest of many newbies, who will in turn join forums, and be turned on to higher end product. Heck, I started out a Mac enthusiast. Now I own a Takeda, Moritaka, Konosuke, Watanabe, Yoshikane.... all because of these forums. Now I drool over the customs, and will someday, for sure, step up to that level.....

Point is, we should embrace competition, it is healthy.

bprescot
04-27-2011, 10:51 AM
I don't think it's as much that anyone here insists on an artisan-only mentality, but I think, reading between the lines, people seem to have a good idea of who "oldest knife company in the USA" is that made the blades and feel that the hype and the reality don't match.

Still might be an okay performer. It might even be worth the money. I figure it's speculation until someone takes the plunge, but that isn't going to be me. If I find myself with an extra $170 lying around, I'm buying a Moritaka to replace the one I sold a couple years ago. If someone does pick up one of the production ones though, I'd love to read a writeup.

oivind_dahle
04-27-2011, 10:52 AM
No Chop!

Step up to customs asap!

Anyway: I have none unspoken with Mark. He has always been nice and gentle to me.

Cadillac J
04-27-2011, 11:30 AM
I'm trying to look at this from a completely objective view...so bare with me.

There are already negative feelings between certain parties (some of which I share without being directly involved) that might be strong enough to dismiss or criticize a project from the start...but let's just look at what this project is on its face.

The 'addict' isn't going to steal business from the custom folks, and is just another product to compete with every other $100-250 Japanese knife on the market...and because there are already so many great and proven products in this price range, it really isn't going to have much of an impact. To be honest, I didn't eve know there was any 'hype' associated with this knife, and I'm on the forums every day.

- Are customers being tricked, lied to, or being forced to make a purchase of said knife?___Not that I can see.
- Are there any claims of it being better than other competitive products out there?___I can't find any.
- Does it look to be a decent knife at a reasonable price?___seems to be.

The following is based on the tones of what I read, and is just my observation on the subject...take with a grain of salt:So what seems to be the problem--I'm thinking the issue has more to do with the principle involved. I get the feeling that he is viewed by craftsman (makers, sharpeners, wood-workers) as an 'outsider' who is capitalizing on the popularity of Japanese knives...they see his primary goal as sales/profits versus craftsman who are driven by passion first, and hoping the profits follow in return. If this is the case, I'm sure the description that he 'made' the knife and has his name on it (not sure if literally), might kind of seem like a slap in the face to them.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but that is how I read the situation. If this same exact knife was made by a forum member, would it be judged the same?

aser
04-27-2011, 12:13 PM
The only thing I can say is that he is at least sourcing his own product lately, with DT ITK, Tojiro bread knife and now this.

The complaint before was that he was lowballing on products that were first sourced by others in the game. If he never did that in the first place then I don't think he would've encountered this level of animosity with his product launches. I think he learned his lesson with that one.

SpikeC
04-27-2011, 01:45 PM
I sense a knee jerk defense of CKTG where nor real attack is visible, if you read the posts with objectivity.

Dave Martell
04-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Commendable, for sure. Although, I am not sure the likes of Takeda, Moritaka, Konosuke, Tadatsuna, Masamoto, Watanabe should be called "cheap". I never said anything about Marks knowledge (Marko?), just his business savvy. But, no one can deny, that he has made it easy and affordable to purchase knives.

The knives aren't cheap but have been (IMO) cheapened.




So do you guys not want people on your forum that can only afford "cheap" knives? Because thats how you are coming off....

I can't answer for everyone but I'm Ok with users participating here of all financial levels and interests.




These kind of attacks are uncalled for, are childish, and show no restraint. Grow up!

Either I missed something or I'm seeing things differently than you are because I don't see an attack. Maybe I'm bias though as I don't care for Mark and I'm likely skewed by my feelings for him. Please shoot me a PM if you'd like to talk, I don't want you feeling attacked or dismissed here.

NO ChoP!
04-27-2011, 03:49 PM
No, the attacks weren't on CKTG, they were on people who spoke up in support of CKTG. And really, we don't have to go here, that is for sure. I can tell you a good business model is not to slam and slander the competition and those who support it, but to try and sway its supporters with better product, service, etc... I can tell you, this is not the first time I have been left with a bad taste in my mouth from one of our "beloved" forum gurus...

NO ChoP!
04-27-2011, 03:58 PM
Marko is the one who called me out directly, not Dave.......



I have been longer around on forums than you (NoChop) and I know what I am talking about. I also know knives, and know who knows about knives and who doesn't. And who doesn't know how to sharpen. So when I hear comments like "he knows about knives", what are you basing this on? A phone conversation? YouTube videos? Show me the beef!

I am not being a snob........

M

Really? And you even put it quotations, as if I said that. Well, I did not.

What I did say is he knows business. (he's still selling knives, while the rest of the community is in an uproar at the mere mention of his name)

Dave Martell
04-27-2011, 04:05 PM
I'd like to see this discussion turn back around to talking about the knives versus the man. The personal level is getting a bit too much and I'm asking for cooler heads to prevail please.

Marko Tsourkan
04-27-2011, 04:07 PM
... I never said anything about Marks knowledge (Marko?), just his business savvy. But, no one can deny, that he has made it easy and affordable to purchase knives. I really don't know about the "fallout", nor do I care.



NoChop -
That didn't come from you and wasn't directed at you. It's in an earlier post in the same thread.

Yes, there is market for all kinds of knives, but knockouts do bring down price of the real stuff and blurry the line what quality is if you are not knowledgeable with the real stuff.

I don't really care of the 'competition', as I do this for a hobby and from what I have seen, gives me no reason to worry, but I can see many people in the field feeling the pinch.

My Walmartization comment is not out the line either. It starts with rock-bottom prices to drive out the competition, and either ends up with higher prices and fewer choices or continues with bringing prices down even further by manufacturing outside of US. Sounds familiar? In 1970s manufacturing was over 60% of US economy, now it less than 20%.
I have never set my foot in a Walmart store and never will if I can help it.

And lastly, I think investing in quality tools would serve you better in the long run. Knife is a tool and I would rather have a 2-3 good knives then a dozen of mediocre knives. That is where Walmartization comes into the equation.

I don't think I directed my comment against Mark personally, but rather how he does business. If you want to pinpoint one factor that brought down the Knife Forums, this is it.

M

olpappy
04-27-2011, 04:08 PM
I spoke at length with Mark about this knife. Bottom line this guy knows knives. Took a good shape and made it out of good steel....at a great price. $170 barely covers the cost of a Stephan handle w/ shipping. This is a hell of a deal.

Pesky

Just to clear up something, here is the post stating "he knows knives"
so you can conclude that Marko was referring to this post

Personally there's something about the shape that doesn't look like a typical gyuto shape, it looks more like a big santoku, I think it's the width towards the tip.

And while it is indeed difficult to find a stainless wa gyuto in this price range, its pretty easy to find nice western handle gyutos in this price range.

NO ChoP!
04-27-2011, 04:12 PM
Sorry, not trying to create drama really. The subject was "the Addict", and whether anyone likes Mark or not, or if he knows knives or not, he is a savvy business man. I only stood up to say, my dealings with him have always been professional. I have met him in person, and he was very humble.

I think the real argument is my money may be better spent with people who are truly passionate such as JCK and JKI, to name a few. I get it; really. I am a small business owner myself, competing in a field full of big $ players. Its hard.

Now, being that I am from Wisconsin, I know all about the Kringle. They're all good as long as there is cream cheese inside!

WildBoar
04-27-2011, 04:19 PM
Capitalism is funny sometimes. In the strip shopping center near my office, there has been a Panera for quite a few years. Very popular place! Then a couple years ago Quiznos opened a few doors down. They have become popular as well, as they are a bit cheaper and the wait is shorter. And what just went up on a storefront two doors down? A Subway! So now there will be 3 sandwich shops within 50 feet of each other. The first was, for the sake of our discussion, the 'artisan', followed by the 'semi-custom' (mmmm, toasted!), and now the bottom-of-the-barrel is opening up. Cheaper, more 'mass-production', much lower quality. The Panera already slipped quite a few notches in quality since the opening of Quiznos, so it will be interesting to see how they fare now with Subway also chipping into their lunch business.

Andrew H
04-27-2011, 04:23 PM
The thing that stands out to me is the steel. Anyone know what the difference is between CM154 and CPM154?

mr drinky
04-27-2011, 04:31 PM
Boy oh boy, I bring a new baby mouth to feed into this world, take a break from the forum, and completely lose touch. Before today I knew nothing of the Addict -- and embarrassingly the kringle too. And I am Norwegian and from MN!! Grandma cooked a lot of Scandinavian fare, but not the kringle. Is it more Danish?

k.

WildBoar
04-27-2011, 04:38 PM
The thing that stands out to me is the steel. Anyone know what the difference is between CM154 and CPM154?Shoot -- scratch my initial response. The CM vs CPM that was discussed in another thread was not 154. I know Pierre and Butch both use CPM154 (among other steels).

Salty dog
04-27-2011, 04:50 PM
Boy oh boy, I bring a new baby mouth to feed into this world, take a break from the forum, and completely lose touch. Before today I knew nothing of the Addict -- and embarrassingly the kringle too. And I am Norwegian and from MN!! Grandma cooked a lot of Scandinavian fare, but not the kringle. Is it more Danish?

k.

Yep, Danish. Hence the "sen" names, Bendtsen's, Larsen's, and the Olsen's own O&H.

Salty dog
04-27-2011, 04:58 PM
https://www.realracine.com/files/play_video.php?video=kringle


That video sums up how hip this town is.

mhlee
04-27-2011, 05:09 PM
Shoot -- scratch my initial response. The CM vs CPM that was discussed in another thread was not 154. I know Pierre and Butch both use CPM154 (among other steels).

Try here:

http://www.crucible.com/eselector/general/generaltitle.html

Andrew H
04-27-2011, 05:13 PM
Thanks for both of the links.

Lefty
04-27-2011, 05:16 PM
Ok, since we're talking about pastries...has anyone heard of pastéis de belem?
They are Portuguese custard tarts and they are AMAZING!
I went to the place that invented them, and there
Was literally almost an hour wait for a table.
Oh, CPM154 is a finer grained (powdered) version of the original CM154, if I'm not mistaken. It should take a keener edge, while still maintaining very good durability and stain resistance. Many makers like it because it responds well to manufacturing, while performing at least at par with VG10.

olpappy
04-27-2011, 05:22 PM
The thing that stands out to me is the steel. Anyone know what the difference is between CM154 and CPM154?

First of all, 154CM is the name of the steel, not CM154. That in itself tells me that whoever started calling it that is not a knife nut. After 440C became widely used in custom knives in the 70s and 80s, 154CM began to be used as the next step, supposedly a little bit better than 440C. After 154CM had some problems with quality control the Japanese equivalent, ATS-34, became the common standard for custom knives. Since then the variety of steels being used has just exploded, I suppose most recently S30V was highly regarded but now that seems to be falling out of fashion too.

You could say 154CM is a quite decent steel for custom knives, not as much flashy marketing as the exotic stuff but a very solid performer at a nice price point.

cpm154 is the crucible particle metallurgy product which is chemically the same alloy composition as 154cm but processed in a way which produces more evenly distributed smaller carbides than the "regular" steel. Butch has used it on many blades and it is his preferred steel. It takes a nice polish, isn't very hard to sharpen and holds an edge well.

Lefty
04-27-2011, 05:31 PM
Thanks for correcting my/our mistake with the name. You are right, it is 154cm. The cm stood for the old makers name (I can't remember it right now), correct?
Either way, cpm is a new, finer grained version, made by a different manufacturer. It's a very good stainless, while the old 'cm' was spotty as far as reliability was concerned. The new stuff is very nice. Hence Pierre and Butch using it with such success.

bprescot
04-27-2011, 06:12 PM
I can't say I'm up on my steels the way some are, but I seem to recall a discussion a while back about 154cm. In it I think there were a number of people that had experienced some issues with 154cm being more prone to chipping, an issue that wasn't present in cpm154 for some complex reason I completely didn't understand. Am i remembering this right? If so, is that an issue with the HT of those particular blades or is this something the steel itself is prone to?

Lefty
04-27-2011, 06:39 PM
I'm not 100% on this, but I have a feeling it might be a result of how high they go with the hardening. It seems cpm154 goes to 61hrc with ease, while I'm pretty sure 154cm is more comfortable at about 59hrc.
Maybe the issue of chipping could have been resolved by tempering it down a bit, instead of pushing it past its comfort zone.
I had never heard of chipping issues, but that could well be very true.

mr drinky
04-27-2011, 07:11 PM
https://www.realracine.com/files/play_video.php?video=kringle


That video sums up how hip this town is.

That's pretty darn hip. But now I have kringles on my mind. Let's see if I remember it around next year's Badger Knife Show. That might be a nice (fattening) stop.

k.

SpikeC
04-27-2011, 07:44 PM
I think No ChoP is manufacturing drama where none really exists. And everyone has a right to their opinions. And everyone does not have to love those that you do!

Marko Tsourkan
04-27-2011, 08:34 PM
I think it's time to move on. To each his own.

M

Salty dog
04-27-2011, 09:05 PM
What about the Kringle?

Marko Tsourkan
04-27-2011, 09:20 PM
What about the Kringle?

Have to mail-order one.

DevinT
04-27-2011, 09:25 PM
The original 154 CM had 14 1/2% chrome and 4% moly. It was made by Climax Metalurgical Steel Co. Thus the name 15-4 (15%/4%) chrom moly or some say it stands for Climax Metalurgical.

Crucible Steel bought the pattent and started making the grade. CPM stands for Crucible Particle Metalurgy. Crucible pattented the powder metal process I think in the 70's. They were the first to make steel by this process. At first they only made grades that were tough to roll and process and would benefit from smaller carbide structures, like M-4 and the T-grades.

Ed Severson and Dick Barber former metalurgists for Crucible developed S-30V stainless, a CPM grade specifically for knives and other cutlery. The steel was/is very popular except that it is difficult to finish. CPM 154 is a result of the complaints over finishing S-30V. CPM D-2 came after CPM 154.

The CPM process creates steels with improved toughness, keener edges, better edge holding, and are easier to grind and polish.

Hope this helps.

Hoss

Eamon Burke
04-27-2011, 09:36 PM
That does help(thought I didn't ask)! Thanks Hoss.

Lefty
04-27-2011, 10:34 PM
Hey...who's the new guy??? ;)

Andrew H
04-27-2011, 10:40 PM
The original 154 CM had 14 1/2% chrome and 4% moly. It was made by Climax Metalurgical Steel Co. Thus the name 15-4 (15%/4%) chrom moly or some say it stands for Climax Metalurgical.

Crucible Steel bought the pattent and started making the grade. CPM stands for Crucible Particle Metalurgy. Crucible pattented the powder metal process I think in the 70's. They were the first to make steel by this process. At first they only made grades that were tough to roll and process and would benefit from smaller carbide structures, like M-4 and the T-grades.

Ed Severson and Dick Barber former metalurgists for Crucible developed S-30V stainless, a CPM grade specifically for knives and other cutlery. The steel was/is very popular except that it is difficult to finish. CPM 154 is a result of the complaints over finishing S-30V. CPM D-2 came after CPM 154.

The CPM process creates steels with improved toughness, keener edges, better edge holding, and are easier to grind and polish.

Hope this helps.

Hoss

Thanks for the great info.

NO ChoP!
04-28-2011, 12:24 AM
I think I may try to "manufacture" one of those too (kringle)... can't be too hard.

I saw today that Mark has been holding back on a surprise western handle in the works, as well....wonder what kind of controversy this will cause.

stereo.pete
04-29-2011, 08:42 AM
Well,

I've been looking for an affordable wa-handle Gyuto that didn't have a terrible handle and so I decided to take the plunge and try the Richmond Addict. This isn't a full-fledged review since I picked it up last night but I did want to post some pictures and initial impressions. Right out of the box I was impressed with the fit and finish of the handle, which is right up there with my Devin Thomas ITK handle. When using a pinch grip the knife is very comfortable due to the spine being rounded. One area of concern is the choil, which is very sharp out of the box so I will need to work on that later. The knife also appears to be rather thick from looking at the choil but I still haven't put it through the paces to see how she cuts.

P.S. I know that many on here get rather heated when discussing CKTG and I can understand why. I spend 90% of my knife forum time here because of the awesome community that left knifeforums to come support dave including myself. I'm looking at this as simply a product review dealing with fact not emotion.


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7113/img0488xb.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/img0488xb.jpg/)
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1152/img0487cd.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/img0487cd.jpg/)
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5049/img0486o.th.jpg (http://img713.imageshack.us/i/img0486o.jpg/)
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7238/img0485y.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/i/img0485y.jpg/)
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6899/img0484n.th.jpg (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/img0484n.jpg/)

Lefty
04-29-2011, 09:18 AM
Sounds fair.
Thanks for more pics. I'm curious to see what you think once you really get going with the new blade.

Pensacola Tiger
04-29-2011, 10:03 AM
A production Addict was delivered to my door by FedEx yesterday. A pleasant surprise, considering how disappointing the prototype blade I got in February was. I'll try to add some pics later today, as well as my impressions of using the knife, but here are some measurements:

Weight: 194g
Length of edge: 239.5mm (a "true" 240mm)
Height of blade at heel: 55.2mm

Blade thickness:
Spine at heel: 2.75mm
Midpoint at heel: 1.65mm
Edge at heel (right above bevel): 0.80mm

Spine at midblade: 2.55mm
Midpoint at midblade: 1.55mm
Edge at midblade (right above bevel): 0.65

Spine at 1cm from tip: 1.05mm
Edge at 1cm from tip (right above bevel): 0.60

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Misc%20Photos/RichmondAddict24cmwa-gyuto.jpg

Compared to the prototype, the production version has vastly improved geometry. The prototype was almost unusable due to the extremely poor grind. Note that Lamson Goodnow who does the production version) did NOT do the grind on the prototype I have.

The handle, according to what I've read, was sourced from Takeda. Putting it next to my Takeda, the handles appear almost identical, so I think what I read is correct.

The blade profile appears to be identical to the Watanabe Pro gyuto.

If you've got questions, I'll try to give answers.

More later,

Rick

cnochef
04-29-2011, 10:09 AM
Looks good except I think the tang looks extremely narrow for this size of knife. Not sure that will impact any performance though, more of an aesthetic issue maybe.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 10:13 AM
Does it feel as thick as it seems?
When I get home, I'll take calipers to my favourite gyuto to compare, but that seems like it could be a bit of a fatty (or workhorse).
Thanks for the measurements!

99Limited
04-29-2011, 10:19 AM
Well, I got mine yesterday w/o a handle. I took a bunch of measurements so here we go: Blade height @ heel - 55mm, cutting edge length - 240mm, spine thickness @ heel - 2.3mm, spine thickness midway - 2mm, spine thickness 1" from tip - 1.27mm, blade thickness 5mm above edge - 0.5mm, weight of blade w/o handle - 148g.

Haven't decided what to do about a handle. I bought a handle from Stefan a couple of months ago and was originally going to use it, but I think I'm going to save it for something else.

NO ChoP!
04-29-2011, 10:38 AM
194g does seem a tad heavy (at least comparatively to most lasers), no? But, he does refer to it as a "workhorse" I guess....

I'd love to hear someones thoughts post taking it to the stones...

heirkb
04-29-2011, 11:02 AM
I'm not trying to defend this knife (I think it looks a little awkward/ugly), but I do have some questions about why people have been calling it thick. I'm still totally new to Japanese knives and I'm waiting on mine to arrive, so I don't have a good sense of the geometry of these knives yet. Looking at profile shots of this knife and Hiromoto AS knives, don't the Hiromotos seem thicker to you? And everyone seems to love those. Or for example, Maksim just posted a profile shot of his Yoshikane gyuto, which looks similar to this and he said the geometry was excellent. Looking at the measurement for thickness of the blade between the spine and edge, this knife is barely thicker than a Konosuke 240mm gyuto, which is considered a laser (it's thicker by .2mm than the Konosuke). Is that .2mm going to make a huge difference?

Again, not trying to defend this knife, and I'm not even interested in buying it either. I'm just trying to get a better sense of how geometry is likely to affect the cutting and why people consider one knife thick and another one to have great geometry if the numbers are similar.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 11:19 AM
I'm not bashing the knife at all. I have no reason to. But, 2.75mm spine thickness is pretty girthy...not super thick, but for me, it's more about the 2.55mm halfway down towards the tip. That, is closer to what a heel measurement should be. There doesn't seem to be a lot of distal taper at all, which will make the already stubby tip less usable (in theory).
I'm not sure about the grind (spine to cutting edge taper), as I haven't yet measured a knife that I consider very nimble.
I will reserve judgement, and give it the benefit of the doubt.
I'm keeping in mind the fabled Aritsugu type a isn't exactly a supermodel either. This could very well be an excellent knife for the price. I'm going to sit back and read the reviews, and let the people who are actually using the knife tell the story, instead of just numbers. They are after all, just numbers.

chazmtb
04-29-2011, 11:27 AM
Wow, never seen that knife until now. It looks like an exact copy/profile of the Watanabe gyuto. Interesting.

ecchef
04-29-2011, 12:05 PM
Looks good except I think the tang looks extremely narrow for this size of knife. Not sure that will impact any performance though, more of an aesthetic issue maybe.

I noticed that too. Looks awkward. Maybe should have been called 'Pencil Neck Knife'. :chin:

Pensacola Tiger
04-29-2011, 12:08 PM
Wow, never seen that knife until now. It looks like an exact copy/profile of the Watanabe gyuto. Interesting.

Here's both the Watanabe (blade) and Richmond Addict (knife). You be the judge.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Misc%20Photos/RichmondComparison.jpg

heirkb
04-29-2011, 12:18 PM
I'm not bashing the knife at all. I have no reason to. But, 2.75mm spine thickness is pretty girthy...not super thick, but for me, it's more about the 2.55mm halfway down towards the tip. That, is closer to what a heel measurement should be. There doesn't seem to be a lot of distal taper at all, which will make the already stubby tip less usable (in theory).
I'm not sure about the grind (spine to cutting edge taper), as I haven't yet measured a knife that I consider very nimble.
I will reserve judgement, and give it the benefit of the doubt.
I'm keeping in mind the fabled Aritsugu type a isn't exactly a supermodel either. This could very well be an excellent knife for the price. I'm going to sit back and read the reviews, and let the people who are actually using the knife tell the story, instead of just numbers. They are after all, just numbers.

Oh yeah, I wasn't implying that you're bashing the knife. I definitely don't think it's a pretty knife to look at (especially with that strangely thin tang that people have already mentioned). I just wanted to learn a little more about knife geometry. I see what you're saying about the spine. The midpoint does seem thick relative to other knives I'm looking at. I still don't quite know how to tell if it's going to be a thick knife that's going to wedge a lot from looking at its choil, since the choil looks like a lot of other knives I've seen so far. That's really the part that I wanted to learn more about.

Pensacola Tiger
04-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Does it feel as thick as it seems?
When I get home, I'll take calipers to my favourite gyuto to compare, but that seems like it could be a bit of a fatty (or workhorse).
Thanks for the measurements!

Don't get too hung up on spine measurements; the spine on my Takeda gyuto, which is considered by most people to be an excellent cutter, measures 4.10mm at the heel, 2.65mm at midblade and 1.25 mm near the tip. It's generally the grind behind the edge that determines performance.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 12:45 PM
Yeah, that's a good point P Tiger.
I really have to check out my gyutos to see the difference.

SpikeC
04-29-2011, 12:53 PM
Looks good except I think the tang looks extremely narrow for this size of knife. Not sure that will impact any performance though, more of an aesthetic issue maybe.

My impression as well. It looks fragile, butt is it?

Lefty
04-29-2011, 12:56 PM
Does anyone have measurements on a knife (good cutter) with a starting point of roughly 2.75mm, or 2.55mm to compare to the Addict?
I'm talking spine, midpoint on blade, and directly above cutting edge?

bprescot
04-29-2011, 12:59 PM
I seem to recall the TC Blades wa's being around that. Don't have one to check, though.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 01:19 PM
The big difference is the TC Blades are handmade works of art!

Andrew H
04-29-2011, 01:23 PM
Which is why we shouldn't compare them to something that is 40% of the price...
BTW, I hear that Heiji gyutos are better than the addict also. :razz:

chazmtb
04-29-2011, 01:35 PM
Here's both the Watanabe (blade) and Richmond Addict (knife). You be the judge.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Misc%20Photos/RichmondComparison.jpg

Looked like CKTG took the profile of the watanabe and copied it, kinda like the ITK to the tadasuna. I know that pattent laws don't apply, but kinda sneaky. Like copying a kramer's profile and marketing the knife as your own. I'm sure those original craftsmen worked hard on their designs.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 01:35 PM
I'm just curious about how it PERFORMS!
But. you can't be a handmade knife.

bprescot
04-29-2011, 01:36 PM
The big difference is the TC Blades are handmade works of art!
Ha! I brought it up more because people pursuing "teh lazerz" complained about it's 'ahem' "solid" construction. A great cutter by all accounts, though, so I figured it might be an interesting comparison.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 01:51 PM
It is a good one, if they're similarly ground...a really good one! Ha

SpikeC
04-29-2011, 01:57 PM
The interesting thing (to me) about the Takeda gyuto is that it is thinner at the mid point of the blade than at the edge, hollow on both sides from the forging. So 8 mm from the edge at the mid point of the blade it is 1.3mm, and it becomes quite a bit thinner as it goes up, then thickening again right at the spine.

UglyJoe
04-29-2011, 01:59 PM
It's thinner than my Mizuno, and although the Mizuno is by no means a laser, it cuts exceptionally well, so I don't think this knife isn't going to preform well, at least not from geometry perspective. Steel and evenness of grind are all up in the air till we start to get reviews.

mr drinky
04-29-2011, 03:33 PM
I don't really have an opinion about the knife/steel/geometry, and I have no qualms with Mark/CKTG as my Devin Thomas blades came from there. With that said, the names of these knives are pretty lame IMO. The 'Richmond Addict'? And 'Richmond Remedy' for the western TKC he is having made? And now the Kikuichi TKC clone has been rebranded "Kikuichi Performance TKC." Maybe that is just me though. I like personal names on my knives when they are custom made by actual people -- otherwise stick to knife style, acronyms, and other exotic or technical sounding names.

k.

ecchef
04-29-2011, 03:43 PM
The interesting thing (to me) about the Takeda gyuto is that it is thinner at the mid point of the blade than at the edge, hollow on both sides from the forging. So 8 mm from the edge at the mid point of the blade it is 1.3mm, and it becomes quite a bit thinner as it goes up, then thickening again right at the spine.

I've noticed that with my Takeda. Is this common with his all his gyuto, or was there some point where his technique changed? I believe that his older stuff used to have a lot less height at heel than his later efforts.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 04:30 PM
I just thought of something...
Do we know for sure that the steel used is 154CM? On the site, I noticed it said CM154. There is a mistake either way, but what if it's actually cPm154, and not 154CM, like we assumed.
Hmmm

NO ChoP!
04-29-2011, 05:00 PM
Are we comparing it to the TC single sided knife, or the later introduced laser? The single sided was a beast. I just sold one in another forum. It was a true piece of beauty, but I found it to be a gyuto shaped deba in practical use, mostly.

I don't think the geometry sounds unusable at all, just maybe not what I expected? ( I guess I assumed he would follow suit with the popularity of Konosuke, Tada, etc...)

I thought it was cpm154, no?

Andrew H
04-29-2011, 05:02 PM
He's either missing a P or labeling the 154CM incorrectly as CM154.

Lefty
04-29-2011, 05:03 PM
We should find out. As we discussed earlier, there is a difference....

WildBoar
04-29-2011, 05:20 PM
which is cheaper, 154CM or CPM154? That might answer the question right there :-)

RRLOVER
04-29-2011, 05:27 PM
which is cheaper, 154CM or CPM154? That might answer the question right there :-)

I just picked up some cpm154 and it is expensive. Much more then 154cm.

RRLOVER
04-29-2011, 05:34 PM
I just picked up some cpm154 and it is expensive. Much more then 154cm.

4x36 chunk there is about 40$ difference.

mr drinky
04-29-2011, 08:40 PM
We should find out. As we discussed earlier, there is a difference....

At KF Mark said it was CM154 and not CPM154. The same confusion was over at the other forum.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?post/2297670/

Pensacola Tiger
04-29-2011, 08:53 PM
At KF Mark said it was CM154 and not CPM154. The same confusion was over at the other forum.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?post/2297670/

Thanks, I knew I had read that somewhere but couldn't find it.

PierreRodrigue
04-29-2011, 08:53 PM
The steel is 154CM.

Eamon Burke
04-29-2011, 10:04 PM
IIRC, 154cm can be sourced from a variety of places, no?

I wonder who made the steel for this one.

BTW, I think a production line knife should be able to nail down one thing as well as the top makers--design lines. The lines on this knife are not fantastic, and it wouldn't cost him any more or less to change that.

Larrin
04-29-2011, 10:26 PM
IIRC, 154cm can be sourced from a variety of places, no?

I wonder who made the steel for this one.

BTW, I think a production line knife should be able to nail down one thing as well as the top makers--design lines. The lines on this knife are not fantastic, and it wouldn't cost him any more or less to change that.
While there are many copies of 154CM (ATS-34 being the most common), 154CM is only made by one company.

Eamon Burke
04-29-2011, 10:38 PM
Ah, that's what I was remembering, the ATS-34. Since Climax making it anymore(as Hoss stated), who makes it? Not Crucible I would assume...:what:

Eamon Burke
04-29-2011, 10:39 PM
So I noticed that his new knife in the line is made by Dexter. It just says "The oldest knife manufacturer in America" or something, but that's Dexter, right?

I'm finding these knives inscrutable, and am looking forward to in-use videos.

mr drinky
04-29-2011, 10:58 PM
So I noticed that his new knife in the line is made by Dexter. It just says "The oldest knife manufacturer in America" or something, but that's Dexter, right?

I'm finding these knives inscrutable, and am looking forward to in-use videos.

I think it is Lamson making them.

K.

SpikeC
04-29-2011, 11:02 PM
It is very important to keep it a secret so that the competition can't sneak in and steal the secrets!

festally
04-30-2011, 12:09 AM
IIRC, 154cm can be sourced from a variety of places, no?

I wonder who made the steel for this one.

BTW, I think a production line knife should be able to nail down one thing as well as the top makers--design lines. The lines on this knife are not fantastic, and it wouldn't cost him any more or less to change that.

If I’m not mistaken, 154CM comes from Crucible and is a more advanced version of 440C. As far as I can tell, the 154CM blade in my Benchmade edc compares favorably to VG-10. If anything 154cm seems to trade some edge acuteness for toughness. Everything else seems similiar.

Lefty
04-30-2011, 12:44 AM
I hate to generalize, but the CPM154 that Pierre and Butch use, in general, is better than 154CM.
CPM154 is basically a new and improved, finer grained version.
I'm sure we could ask either of them, but Devin stepped in and agreed with the above statement, so no need to rope the others into this.
:)

mikemac
04-30-2011, 09:45 AM
It is very important to keep it a secret so that the competition can't sneak in and steal the secrets!

Like the TKC...right? :oops:

Lefty
05-02-2011, 09:02 AM
A production Addict was delivered to my door by FedEx yesterday. A pleasant surprise, considering how disappointing the prototype blade I got in February was. I'll try to add some pics later today, as well as my impressions of using the knife, but here are some measurements:

Weight: 194g
Length of edge: 239.5mm (a "true" 240mm)
Height of blade at heel: 55.2mm

Blade thickness:
Spine at heel: 2.75mm
Midpoint at heel: 1.65mm
Edge at heel (right above bevel): 0.80mm

Spine at midblade: 2.55mm
Midpoint at midblade: 1.55mm
Edge at midblade (right above bevel): 0.65

Spine at 1cm from tip: 1.05mm
Edge at 1cm from tip (right above bevel): 0.60

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Misc%20Photos/RichmondAddict24cmwa-gyuto.jpg

Compared to the prototype, the production version has vastly improved geometry. The prototype was almost unusable due to the extremely poor grind. Note that Lamson Goodnow who does the production version) did NOT do the grind on the prototype I have.

The handle, according to what I've read, was sourced from Takeda. Putting it next to my Takeda, the handles appear almost identical, so I think what I read is correct.

The blade profile appears to be identical to the Watanabe Pro gyuto.

If you've got questions, I'll try to give answers.

More later,

Rick

I took my calipers and tape to my favourite gyuto (240mm Misono Swede).
These are all true numbers, so it should be interesting to see how they stack up against the Addict's measurements.

Length of Edge: 248mm
Height at Heel: 49.1mm

Thickness:
Spine at Heel: 2.52mm
Midpoint at Heel: 1.51mm
Directly Above Edge: 0.54mm

Spine Halfway to Tip: 1.75mm
Midpoint Halfway to Tip: 1.20mm
Directly Above Edge: 0.51mm

Spine 1cm from Tip: 0.78mm
Directy Above Edge: 0.44mm

I thought people might be interested, because I know I was!
I find my gyuto to be a VERY good cutter with a nice amount of heft to it. I haven't compared the numbers head to head yet to make any sort of "conclusions", but once this is up and posted, I'll look at the two knives' specs to see if I can make any sort of assumptions (yes I know it is no good to assume...)

Andrew H
05-02-2011, 10:08 AM
Thanks for the measurements Lefty.

Pensacola Tiger
05-03-2011, 04:49 PM
First Impressions of the Richmond Addict, continued

OK, how does it perform? Well, keep in mind that I'm just a home cook, and I am basing my impressions on my experience with some fairly decent knives - a Kikuichi TKC, a Konosuke HD wa-gyuto, a DT ITK wa-gyuto, a Hiromoto AS gyuto and a Fowler gyuto. All of these knives are at least a step above the Richmond Addict in price. The knife nearest in price that I have, a Kagayaki VG10 gyuto, is vacationing in Canada, and wasn't available for comparison.

On Sunday, I prepared a corn chowder, and used the Addict to dice red and yellow bell pepper, celery, onion, carrots and potatoes. I stropped the edge on leather with .25 micron diamond spray, but did not sharpen it otherwise.

The performance was acceptable, but not remarkable. The high tip was a bit awkward at first, but I got used to it after a while. The cuts were clean, and some minor wedging was noticeable. The blade has enough contact with the board to prevent "accordioning".

The handle is first rate, and the easing of the spine that was done during the grind adds to the overall impression that it is a comfortable knife to use.

Monday evening, I used it to shred a head of cabbage, and again, the knife performed adequately.

Now, I have to say that at no time did the knife glide through the food I was preparing like any one of the five comparison gyutos listed above do. A bit of thinning will probably improve things, but that will have to wait. I wish it had come a little thinner out of the box.

In summary, I'd have to say that it is a decent knife for the price but nothing special, which may be what many of us were looking for.

If you are looking for a wa-gyuto with a distinctive profile, this may be the knife you're looking for.

Rick

stereo.pete
05-03-2011, 05:04 PM
First Impressions of the Richmond Addict, continued

OK, how does it perform? Well, keep in mind that I'm just a home cook, and I am basing my impressions on my experience with some fairly decent knives - a Kikuichi TKC, a Konosuke HD wa-gyuto, a DT ITK wa-gyuto, a Hiromoto AS gyuto and a Fowler gyuto. All of these knives are at least a step above the Richmond Addict in price. The knife nearest in price that I have, a Kagayaki VG10 gyuto, is vacationing in Canada, and wasn't available for comparison.

On Sunday, I prepared a corn chowder, and used the Addict to dice red and yellow bell pepper, celery, onion, carrots and potatoes. I stropped the edge on leather with .25 micron diamond spray, but did not sharpen it otherwise.

The performance was acceptable, but not remarkable. The high tip was a bit awkward at first, but I got used to it after a while. The cuts were clean, and some minor wedging was noticeable. The blade has enough contact with the board to prevent "accordioning".

The handle is first rate, and the easing of the spine that was done during the grind adds to the overall impression that it is a comfortable knife to use.

Monday evening, I used it to shred a head of cabbage, and again, the knife performed adequately.

Now, I have to say that at no time did the knife glide through the food I was preparing like any one of the five comparison gyutos listed above do. A bit of thinning will probably improve things, but that will have to wait. I wish it had come a little thinner out of the box.

In summary, I'd have to say that it is a decent knife for the price but nothing special, which may be what many of us were looking for.

If you are looking for a wa-gyuto with a distinctive profile, this may be the knife you're looking for.

Rick

Rick,

Am I understanding you correctly in the above post that you only stropped it and did not sharpen the knife at all? Are you still using the out of the box edge?

Pensacola Tiger
05-03-2011, 05:07 PM
Rick,

Am I understanding you correctly in the above post that you only stropped it and did not sharpen the knife at all? Are you still using the out of the box edge?

Yes, the OOTB edge was surprisingly good, and I was able to just strop it to get it to shave my arm and cut newspaper.

wenus2
05-04-2011, 02:16 AM
I'm surprised Mark didn't try to take your knife back after finding out it was possibly thicker than the other knives allegedly are.
I certainly wouldn't want a vocal forum member to have a less than ideal specimen.

Andrew H
05-04-2011, 07:05 AM
Yeah 20% thicker than he wanted....

Pensacola Tiger
05-04-2011, 10:30 AM
Thickness at the spine is not the issue - just check out a Shigefusa. I'm more concerned with how thick it is behind the edge. I'm thinking of taking it to the stones and doing some thinning.

Rick

bigboybrent
05-04-2011, 10:02 PM
Did you guys see that there is a Richmond Remedy in the works? with a profile similar to the TKC?

Salty dog
05-04-2011, 11:09 PM
Saturation. Not a good thing.

Eamon Burke
05-04-2011, 11:34 PM
Yeah, that one looks major spendy.

mr drinky
05-04-2011, 11:58 PM
Yeah, that one looks major spendy.

At his site (and KF), Mark says it will go for $250 and after 30 days $275.

Btw, the steel on this one is CPM154.

k.

EdipisReks
05-06-2011, 09:28 AM
Yeah, that one looks major spendy.

there are certainly a lot of good knives at that price point.

99Limited
05-06-2011, 10:13 AM
there are certainly a lot of good knives at that price point.

For that kind of money FnF and geometry are going to have to be almost perfect otherwise why would you buy a Dexter-Russell knife instead of one made by a Japanese craftsman?

NO ChoP!
05-07-2011, 02:18 AM
He told us the addict was going to be $269, and its only $169.... its all smoke and screens... perception of value. Guarantee it will debut less than $269!

rockbox
05-07-2011, 04:53 AM
To be fair $250 isn't a bad price for a knife made from powdered steel. It's actually cheaper than most. I'm not fond of the addict though because I'm not a big fan of CM154/ATS-34. I find it inferior to VG-10 in almost every way and I think Mark made a mistake using it. Blade profile is a personal choice so I will not comment on that.

Andrew H
05-07-2011, 10:45 AM
To be fair $250 isn't a bad price for a knife made from powdered steel. It's actually cheaper than most. I'm not fond of the addict though because I'm not a big fan of CM154/ATS-34. I find it inferior to VG-10 in almost every way and I think Mark made a mistake using it. Blade profile is a personal choice so I will not comment on that.

Steel choice is rather personal as well.

rockbox
05-07-2011, 11:37 AM
Steel choice is rather personal as well.

Sure it is when you have to decide between one characteristic versus another such as fine grain versus wear resistance. However there is nothing CM154/ATS-34 does better than VG-10. It rusts more easily, its slightly harder to get a great edge on it and it doesn't hold an edge as long. Its only advantage is that its easier to get a hold of in the US.

rockbox
05-07-2011, 11:57 AM
Some food for thought.

Knife making is like eating out - you can have a meal in a small restaurant ($$-$$$) or a large cafeteria ($-$$) where you have many economies of scale.

A friend of mine (a member here) told me once something that stuck with me for the rest of my life. He said "out of three things - price, quality, and customer service, you get to choose two". So each of us decides what is important to each of us.

M

As person who deals with automation regularly, I only partially agree with this. It really depends on how you define quality. With the proper economies to scale and automation, you can have all three. Lexus is a case in point. When it first came out it, was better in almost every way compared to German brands. Better service, better price, and better reliability. The only thing that car enthusiast complained about was that the cars had no soul.

The one thing that you can't get with price, quality, and service is customization. Automation by definition precludes a level of customization. If you want something that is slightly different, you are SOL. That is what craftsman like you bring to the table. Its the differentiation that makes you special. We get choices of material, shape, and finish. Its the variability while still maintaining quality that provides the soul to the a craft. When I see something that you guys make, most of the time, I can tell who made it. Its the style that makes you guys worth more.

Lefty
05-07-2011, 12:07 PM
Well said Rockbox!
Although, it would be hard to argue that the quality isn't higher as well. I'm not saying mass manufactured products can't be great, but in general, a skilled craftsman, like Marko, Pierre, Devin, Butch, etc will have superior products, with more soul.
After handling certain products recently, I would have to say, I'll be paying the premium almost always, from now on.

rockbox
05-07-2011, 12:22 PM
I'm not arguing that a mass produced knife is better quality than the stuff the knife makers here make. I would be stupid to do so. It was more a philosophical comment. If there were a market for 200K Kramer Chevron Damascus knives, I'm sure some company could make them with tighter tolerances than Bob could make them for far less money. The problem is that there would be another 199,999 knives just like it in the world and most of you guys wouldn't want it.

Lefty
05-07-2011, 12:32 PM
I know you weren't, I just wanted to make that little point clear :).

Silas
05-15-2011, 09:49 PM
https://www.randazzokingcake.com/

The best king cake in NOLA. They ship, too.

Yeah, you right!!!

However, the second best is at Ernie's Bakery in Springfield, La.