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Bill Burke
05-01-2011, 08:41 PM
Did anyone else Have "ONE OF THOSE DAYS" today? It wasn't all bad But it sure did seem like monday. I am trying to do a special knife for someone and today was the second try That I messed up on. I did get two billets of Tamahagane welded up and folded six times each, one more to do then cut all the bars up combine them into one and twelve more folds. this will give me the kawagane for two or three swords and a kitchen knife or two. then I have to make the shingane and do final weld before forging blades.

ecchef
05-01-2011, 09:58 PM
Tamahagane...kawagane...shingane....I love it when you talk dirty!!!:evilgrin:

Eamon Burke
05-01-2011, 09:58 PM
Yeah, sounds horrible. Why don't you try doing something productive? :razz::razz:

Michael Rader
05-02-2011, 12:42 AM
Yeah, I second that...

Sheesh, Bill. I'd hate to see your Fridays. So, now I have to get back to work... can't let Bill have all the fun here...

-M

Chef Niloc
05-02-2011, 01:48 AM
Ummm please tell me it 's not mi mine?

oivind_dahle
05-02-2011, 07:05 AM
Damn Murphy and his stupid law!

I guess you are like Albert Einstein:
It is better to laugh about your problems than to cry about them. It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer.

Bill Burke
05-02-2011, 11:01 AM
Ummm please tell me it 's not mi mine?

Ok you are correct and it is not yours.

Sorry Oivid.

oivind_dahle
05-02-2011, 11:59 AM
No problem:)
Im excited to see the pics on Colins pice though :)

In Norway we have a saying "alle gode ting er tre", that means "it always turn out right the third time" :)
I have plenty of time, Im going to stay on this planet for another 50 years :) (unless I get bored and head back to Krypton)

oivind_dahle
05-02-2011, 04:25 PM
How many layers in this knife?

According to this site http://www.kjartan.org/swordfaq/section09.html

Kawagane is folded anywhere from 12 to 16 times, depending on the smith and the metal he is working with, and so could have from 4000 to 65000 layers


***? Is this right?

Bill Burke
05-02-2011, 07:20 PM
Almost, so the technique that I observed and that is written in several of the books that I have begins with the raw bloom. The bloom is heated and flattened into wafers that are then quenched and broken up into small pieces that are then sorted as to carbon content. these pieces are then stacked on a plate made of a larger wafer. the pieces are wrapped with wet paper, a clay slurry (mud) and covered in rice straw ashes and put in the forge and welded together. this bar is then folded about six times, it depends on the steel and the way it acts. this bar is then drawn out and cut into three pieces. One or more of these pieces are combined with pieces from previous forgings and welded and folded twelve to eighteen times aagain depending on the way the steel is acting during forging. when the steel can be cut and folded without the cut ends tearing then it is ready. it is then drawn out and folded into a U shape and the shingane steel (which is low carbon and has been welded and folded similar to the kawagane but without the cutting and restacking) bar is put in the middle like a hot dog in a bun and welded into one piece. this is the drawn into a bar that is forged into a sort of preform for the knife/sword desired.

Chef Niloc
05-03-2011, 02:09 AM
Ok you are correct and it is not yours.

Sorry Oivid.
I love the fact that you A) don't give up &
b) don't mind telling people you F up. Most makers of your level I would think would not be so open about messing up?
Is it just that kitchen knives are tricky or do you some times have trouble on other kinds of knives?
I get sick every time a dish gets sent back or I burn the crab cakes. It only costs me a few $$ and a little bit of time it's got to be much harder for a knife maker. All those hours spent, the cost of materials...

oivind_dahle
05-03-2011, 02:22 AM
I also have to give you cred for you honesty!

Its been a pleasure doing business with you so far. Again I have lots of time, so dont worry. Im really looking forward to Colins pice though. I often admire other peoples pieces, and Colin is the one that made me order from you. So cant wait to see pics :)


Is there a point where there is no point of folding any more? Correct me if Im wrong, but more layers means a tighter structure in the steel? are there any optimal times you should fold?

Bill Burke
05-03-2011, 11:31 AM
I love the fact that you A) don't give up &
b) don't mind telling people you F up. Most makers of your level I would think would not be so open about messing up?
Is it just that kitchen knives are tricky or do you some times have trouble on other kinds of knives?
I get sick every time a dish gets sent back or I burn the crab cakes. It only costs me a few $$ and a little bit of time it's got to be much harder for a knife maker. All those hours spent, the cost of materials...

Hi Colin, Kitchen knifes and utesils seem to give me the most trouble, the sanmai especially. If the forging it not perfect the core shifts and then you get strips of core where you dont want them and/soft cladding on the edge. I also just recently (on two occasions) found that if you forge too thin the stainless will decarburize the core all the way through and the knife will not harden. That caused me to throw away most of the last batch of sanmai and was the ruination of several knives. For me fing thing up seems to be part of the learning experiance and god and everbody knows that I am not perfect so why try to make people think I am. I on occassion still screw up a hunter or bowie but not often and it is usually in the quench. the time and the materials lost are a ***** but the lesson learned is valuable so I just take it in stride.

Bill Burke
05-03-2011, 11:38 AM
I also have to give you cred for you honesty!

Its been a pleasure doing business with you so far. Again I have lots of time, so dont worry. Im really looking forward to Colins pice though. I often admire other peoples pieces, and Colin is the one that made me order from you. So cant wait to see pics :)

Is there a point where there is no point of folding any more? Correct me if Im wrong, but more layers means a tighter structure in the steel? are there any optimal times you should fold?

Thanks Oivind, I have been having fun with our project even though it is very frustrating.

Most of the literature that I have or have read say that there is no benifit to folding more than 18 times and that things start to go downhill shortly after, in other words the steel starts to degrade. and you can make the pattern so fine that it is undetectible without magnification.

Chef Niloc
05-04-2011, 02:31 AM
I will once again say that the suji you made me gets more Wows then any other knife I have, or any one else for that matter. I can say that it very well may be the best kitchen knife in the world! The knife holds a edge like no other.

oivind_dahle
05-04-2011, 05:07 AM
I will once again say that the suji you made me gets more Wows then any other knife I have, or any one else for that matter. I can say that it very well may be the best kitchen knife in the world! The knife holds a edge like no other.


How does the sheep handle do? Do you use some kind of mineral oil on it or anything?

Bill Burke
05-04-2011, 10:22 AM
I know you are asking Niloc And I encourage him to answer also. but in my experiance any kind of animal fat/oil is better for sheep horn than a mineral based oil. with constant use the natural oil transfered from the hand seems to be enough but a suppliment won't hurt.

oivind_dahle
05-04-2011, 12:28 PM
Nice.

When will we see pics of Colins piece?

Chef Niloc
05-05-2011, 02:42 AM
I use mink oil mixed with bees wax. I have herd of horn being stabilized with wood hardener in a vac. Like put it in a jar with the wood stab & use a food saver jar attachment. I don't know if that would work or not? But the mink oil works good, water proofs and smells nice.

Chef Niloc
05-05-2011, 02:50 AM
Just a tease
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/586ce395.png

Bill Burke
05-08-2011, 10:23 PM
My picture taking and editing skills leave more than a little to be desired but here are a few more of colin's new toy.

http://www.fototime.com/0239E7DA04329CF/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/F883EC6FBE6A4BB/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/F7F6926A68C6801/standard.jpg

mattrud
05-08-2011, 10:34 PM
wow!

Bill Burke
05-08-2011, 10:43 PM
Specs are:
San mai construction 52100 and 416
blade length: 10.375 inches
thickness at bolster: .100 with full distal taper
blade width: 2.125 inches
Bolster: copper and nickel silver Mokume
Handle: Sheep Horn
Pins: mosaic Copper and brass
Balance point is right at the front of the bolsters on my initials. I Made the Mokume and welded the San Mai.

JohnnyChance
05-08-2011, 11:41 PM
I think you and Mario (RRLOVER) have the same ottoman or whatever that is you guys use for a background, haha.

Dave Martell
05-08-2011, 11:46 PM
Oh damn Bill that is sweeeeeet! Too bad it's going to Colin. :razz:

Potato42
05-09-2011, 12:49 AM
I love the look of that blade.:thumbsup:

oivind_dahle
05-09-2011, 10:56 AM
Bill:

You keep raising the bar! .) Now my espectations are sky high!

Colin:

Congrats !!

Chef Niloc
05-09-2011, 12:34 PM
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/58879ac8.png

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/849b6bd6.png

Here are a few more pic's Bill sent me...when will that dam mailman come

oivind_dahle
05-09-2011, 12:36 PM
Waz ap with the pin on the handle?
Colins other doesnt have that pin
http://www.fototime.com/12D051F314AAEFF/standard.jpg

?

oivind_dahle
05-09-2011, 12:39 PM
Colin:

Congratz. Its an amazing knife. Its a beauty now, but the true beauty will start to show when you use it. There are few knives that get more beautiful after usage :) I truly admire you taste in knives. I love it! :)

Chef Niloc
05-09-2011, 05:25 PM
That pic was before bill put pins in it.

Chef Niloc
05-09-2011, 05:26 PM
See just like this one, no pins yet
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/5d771601.png

Bill Burke
05-09-2011, 11:22 PM
the handle is two pieces that have been routed out for the tang and then glued back together. the pins are there to make sure that the handle dosen't come apart.

oivind_dahle
05-10-2011, 12:53 AM
Ok :)
Surfed on EE to se if it was common on horn handles, and yes. I only found one without a pin: http://www.epicureanedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=88835
All others had pins :) Some more than one pin as well :)

I have an other question as well then. This means this what not used when picture was taken?
http://www.fototime.com/12D051F314AAEFF/standard.jpg

What is done differently to this blade than to your last piece then?

Bill Burke
05-10-2011, 01:06 AM
The santoku handle is a one piece handlemof musk ox horn so no worry about it coming apart. the Gyoto picture was taken before the pins were put in. I do this often to give a customer the option of changing their mind if the handle is not to their liking. I can change the handle alot easier if the pins are not in and the scales can be used for another knife.

oivind_dahle
05-10-2011, 01:21 AM
Thanks :)

But what is done differently on the blades?
Its etched and highlighted?

How come you are not doing it on the last piece?

Bill Burke
05-10-2011, 01:41 AM
I think it is just crappy photagraphy.