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View Full Version : sharpening for scoring meat, butchery, etc...any tips?



heirkb
12-18-2012, 10:04 PM
I know this is a topic that has come up before, but the answer is usually something along the lines of: don't go too high in grit, don't strop a ton, keep the edge toothy, etc...I've tried to do all these things, but still can't seem to get an edge that really really wants to bit into meats. I think that in general, my edges lack a bit of toothiness (though they haven't been terrible in comparison to other more professional edges I've used).

Today I was testing a little cheap-o Wusthof that I had bought as a Christmas present for my aunt and the knife scored meat incredibly well. I was so surprised that the stock edge on that thing had more bite than one of my edges. I usually go Gesshin 400, 2000, 5000 for my edges and finish them with stropping strokes on the 5000. I've tried staying at 2000 while being careful to remove the burr, or going up to 5000 to really make sure the burr is gone and then dropping back to 2000 briefly with stropping strokes...the edges have been great but haven't had that awesome bite for meat/butchery. Do any of you have any tips/diagnoses for the problem I might be having? Maybe my sharpening is still too wobbly? Or something else?

K-Fed
12-18-2012, 10:34 PM
I usually stop at 1000 grit chosera on my scimitar debur and strop a little on 3 micron diamond. Leaves a very bitey edge the really digs into raw proteins.

Mingooch
12-18-2012, 10:35 PM
Not sure on the wobbly part, but if I want toothy/biting I dont go above 2-3K of an edge and I dont strop. I usually end on my jnat aoto.

sachem allison
12-18-2012, 11:08 PM
i stop at 1000 too

EdipisReks
12-18-2012, 11:30 PM
i only butcher fowl, with an ajikiri, but i stop at 1k with those. works great.

jgraeff
12-18-2012, 11:49 PM
Ya I'd say 1k may and stropping on diamond always gives me a tad more bite to my edge, do this with my deba and its awesome and honesuki except I found recently I like going the gesshin 400 to 2k then strop on 400 very lightly then diamond 1 micron super sharp but toothy edge.

Benuser
12-18-2012, 11:51 PM
If you want to restore the bite on a polished, refined edge: a few edge trailing strokes on a 2k will do.

heirkb
12-19-2012, 10:13 AM
Ok, I'm going to have to go back and try this again. I don't have a 1k, so I'll try the 2k. You guys have really gotten edges that really easy bite into meat just with this technique (i.e. stopping at a low grit) alone?

franzb69
12-19-2012, 10:28 AM
2k would be low enough.

most stock edges on knives would be around 800 grit afaik.

Twistington
12-19-2012, 10:34 AM
Ok, I'm going to have to go back and try this again. I don't have a 1k, so I'll try the 2k. You guys have really gotten edges that really easy bite into meat just with this technique (i.e. stopping at a low grit) alone?

Yup! 1k followed by couple of strokes on a loaded feltpad.

I ordered a binsui recently, think it will be a perfect stone for the knives I throw proteins on. :)

Chefdog
12-19-2012, 10:37 AM
Ok, I'm going to have to go back and try this again. I don't have a 1k, so I'll try the 2k. You guys have really gotten edges that really easy bite into meat just with this technique (i.e. stopping at a low grit) alone?

I have to agree with most others here. I sharpen honesuki, yo-deba, and my western boning knives on a 1K, then very lightly (just a couple strokes each side) strop on a 4K, mostly to make sure the burr is gone. This gives me an edge I like for most butchering needs.

bieniek
12-19-2012, 05:30 PM
I had the same problems some time ago. Its about understanding or better yet, accepting that you really have to

Stay low[with grit]

Just sharpen your knife on 400 and strop, strop well, and then cut meat.
Just try that :)
Or have you?

Justin0505
12-19-2012, 07:23 PM
I'm probably going to be alone in this, but I go a bit higher in grit. However, the key for me is to make some big steps and then not over-work each stone. I go: JKI Gesshin 400, then Gesshin 4k, then a very high-grit, fairly hard, jnat (probably in the 9-12k range.

The Gesshin stones give very even and consistent and scratch patterns and cut very quickly. The j-nat polishing helps to refine the edge, without grinding away all of the teeth. The end-result that I shoot for is an edge that has polished 4K teeth with a few 400grit scratches still left. The end result is an edge that feels "sticky" to the touch more than "rough." Depending on the blade steel, I touch it up on a smooth steel, glass rod, strop, or j-nat.

The benefits to this edge vs just stopping on a lower grit edge seems to be cleaner cuts, less sawing motion required, and better edge stability and retention. Works well on everything from slippery and tough poultry skin and tendons, to beef silver skin, to delicate fish.

heirkb
12-20-2012, 09:46 AM
Thank you for all of the posts, especially the last two, because they are two new things I can try. I'm putting a new handle on my honesuki and once I finish with that, I'll test out these types of edges.

allumirati
12-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Is it easier to get a toothy edge with lower grit? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Try 4 things. Lower edge angle (Don't roll your edges!). Natural stones usually have a irregular scratch pattern which in turn is usually "bitey-er". Use split leather, if it stops giving you bitey edges, clean it. And lastly polycrystalline diamond compound is usually bitey-er than say aluminum oxide or chromium oxide. Also, single bevel or asymetrical edges tend to be bitey-er too.

So to say using a lower grit to finish is really just a compromise.

AAAANNND some steels just take a bitey edge better. Usually steels with large carbides in them.

bieniek
12-20-2012, 11:54 PM
MMM, all cool.
That piece of advice for me would mean byuing new stuff, which just aint going to happen.
My edge angle just cannot go lover or I will scratch sides.
Im in pro kitchen so a butcher knife will have contact with honing rod, so I dont want to spend very long sharpening it - one stone, max two.

All I mean is all is compromise.

NO ChoP!
12-21-2012, 12:06 AM
For cooked, crusty protiens, I stay low, but for meat fab, especially beef, I take it high....

Cleaned 90+ tenderloin psmos this last week with a 210 petty finished on a rika.

allumirati
12-21-2012, 01:26 AM
For cooked, crusty protiens, I stay low, but for meat fab, especially beef, I take it high....

Cleaned 90+ tenderloin psmos this last week with a 210 petty finished on a rika.

Crusty beef...always a tough one. Usually use a push to break the crust initially and then pull to make the cut and maybe a bit of pressure to break through the crust on the other side.

allumirati
12-21-2012, 01:29 AM
MMM, all cool.
That piece of advice for me would mean byuing new stuff, which just aint going to happen.
My edge angle just cannot go lover or I will scratch sides.
Im in pro kitchen so a butcher knife will have contact with honing rod, so I dont want to spend very long sharpening it - one stone, max two.

All I mean is all is compromise.

I think that may be a question of quality vs quantity.

Justin0505
12-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Thank you for all of the posts, especially the last two, because they are two new things I can try. I'm putting a new handle on my honesuki and once I finish with that, I'll test out these types of edges.

Cool! Please don't forget to update us on your findings. Pics / vids = extra credit!

bieniek
12-21-2012, 07:19 PM
I think that may be a question of quality vs quantity.

Of course.
You mean quality time with family or quantity of repeating when your polished edge have too many meetings with bone?

RRLOVER
12-21-2012, 08:24 PM
I know you asked about sharpening....but......A damascus blade will give you a toothy edge too.

EdipisReks
12-21-2012, 08:25 PM
I know you asked about sharpening....but......A damascus blade will give you a toothy edge too.

well, depends on how it's made.

RRLOVER
12-21-2012, 08:30 PM
well, depends on how it's made.

Do you mean the pattern or how it is actually made?

EdipisReks
12-21-2012, 08:34 PM
Do you mean the pattern or how it is actually made?

how it's made. like i said. a knife with little in the way of steel transition at the edge ain't gonna be all that super toothy.

zitangy
12-21-2012, 08:36 PM
Cross COntamination...

For such an objective, I would welcome cross contamination. I use a small 2x 2 inch 1000 grit stone as a "nagura" on the finer stones.

My preferred stone for this wld be the 2000 grit Naniwa SS as it cuts like a 1000 grit adn there's something inside that polishes the edge as it shines too! I am not after the shine.. but it does give the assumption that if it shines.. it must be smoother..


have fun.. and stay sharp..

Merry christmas ..

rgds
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