A high-end no-fuss knife - contradiction in terms?

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

mkozlows

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Reading this forum has been incredibly addicting, and I've been very tempted by a bunch of the knives that get recommended here, but...

I know myself. I am lazy. I am sometimes going to cook and leave the knife sitting out on the counter unwashed for hours. I am never going to sharpen a knife with anything other than the Chef's Choice 120 that I have. I'm not horrible to my knives -- they don't go in the dishwasher, I don't "sharpen" them on cheap little junk things -- but, as much as I might wish it were otherwise, they're never going to get tender, high-attention care from me, either.

Still and all, I like nice things, and I don't think that my Henckel's Four Star chef's knife is really the ultimate in knifeware. Given the reality of my lifestyle, is there a knife under $500 that's worth upgrading to, or are all the "good" knives carbon steel things that would be ruined by my care?

Here's the form letter:

What type of knife(s) do you think you want?

Chef's knife or gyuto

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing?

Because I like things that are great, and I'd hope that there's something better than the Henckel's Four Star out there.

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics- Just fine; I like plainish things.
Edge Quality/Retention- Less than optimal. And yes, I'm aware that this is at least somewhat on me and my sharpening.
Ease of Use- Perfectly fine.
Comfort- Very comfortable in the hand.

What grip do you use?

Pinch.

What kind of cutting motion do you use?

A lot of rocking, some push-cutting

Where do you store them?

Block.

Have you ever oiled a handle?

No, but I oil my cutting board.

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use?

Boos maple endgrain

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing?

Honing rod, but I forget to use it as often as I should

Have they ever been sharpened?

Yes, by the Chef's Choice machine

What is your budget?

Under $500

What do you cook and how often?

I cook daily. Common things it'd cut are carrots, celery, onions, chicken/pork/beef, misc. other vegetables and occasional fruits
 
I'm not sure how far off Pierre's mid-techs are, but they'd be my number one choice, bar none.
 
I think you're gonna want to stick with stainless steel knives. There are some good ones... like the Devin Thomas 270 gyuto in the buy/sell forum right now (is it still there? did someone snag it already?) It's right under your budget and the knife is one of the best.

Anyways, assuming for now that this particular second-hand item isn't available... you're probably gonna want stainless, perhaps slightly on the softer side so that you can use your honing rod to refresh the edge a bit (and I hope you've got a smooth rod not a ribbed one!) and you're probably gonna want a handle with stabilized wood, micarta or something else that won't absorb anything. Suisin INOX? Sakai Yusuke harder-variant? Hmm... I'll leave it to some of the other guys who have more experience with the variety of stainless offerings out there to give you some specific product suggestions!
 
Your desire to stick with the chefs choice 120 is gonna be the deal breaker at automatic sharpener is not going to be able to get the most out of a quality knife. The knives recommended are great but with subpar sharoening they will only be subpar knives. There are professionals here you could send it to for sharpening if you don't want to do it yourself or if your willing to learn a new skill you could learn to sharpen freehand and possibly develop a new hobby.
 
Any stainless knife and some stainless clad w/ semi-stainless core will handle the sort of treatment you describe. I would stick with blades that are not harder than 60 hrc and a thinner cross section so you don't have to worry about your edge thickening up too quickly. I would recommend a 240 mm. If you want western handles, you might a Gesshin Ginga stainless. A couple of steps down from that, you can try a Togiharu. If you are interested in wa-handles, your options include Sakai Yusuke and Tadatsuna.
 
Your desire to stick with the chefs choice 120 is gonna be the deal breaker at automatic sharpener is not going to be able to get the most out of a quality knife. The knives recommended are great but with subpar sharoening they will only be subpar knives. There are professionals here you could send it to for sharpening if you don't want to do it yourself or if your willing to learn a new skill you could learn to sharpen freehand and possibly develop a new hobby.
I disagree. The geometry and profile of Japanese and Japanese-styled knives is already a significant upgrade. You will also see an increase in the amount of time that you are able to derive joy from any given edge. :) You just need to be wary of purchasing something that is going to microchip on your auto-sharpener. I know Chef's Choice makes a model for asian knives. That will be a significant upgrade as well.
 
I'd get that stainless DT ITK on the b/s/t, I'd prefer a 240 personally. Get a ceramic rod, they can maintain the Devin Thomas ITK knives really well, don't really think you'd need much more for home use, or even professional use really. That's my vote, stainless Devin Thomas and a ceramic, should be under 500$, but getting the Devin is the hard part.
 
I think the Devin ITK's are better suited for professional work. They are nice cutters but they truly shine in the edge taking and edge retention department, neither of which is going to matter to you. I should add that a Devin custom job is in another league but also a bit out of your price range, I think.
 
You will ruin your new knife with the electric knife ruiner 5000. Waterstones ftw!
 
if I'm going to buy $500 gyuto...I'm not sharping it with Chef's Choice machine though!! DT itk gyuto stainless & yoshikane SLD semi-stainless gyuto are good all around knives for me. they are great cutter, easy sharpping, good edge retention, won't reactive food & require no or little to take care of the knives!
 
In my newbish opinion, get a solid 200-250 dollar knife and a few quality whetstones, hell, even get two carbonext knives and the stones, still be under 500. Granted the CN isn't stainless but being semi stainless you still have a larger time window (but SS is likely better in your situation).

Overall tho, get a combo stone, even a king 1k/4k that lee valley sells. Sharpening seems like something you won't want to do, but like knives themselves, it's addictive.
 
Any stainless knife and some stainless clad w/ semi-stainless core will handle the sort of treatment you describe. I would stick with blades that are not harder than 60 hrc and a thinner cross section so you don't have to worry about your edge thickening up too quickly. I would recommend a 240 mm. If you want western handles, you might a Gesshin Ginga stainless. A couple of steps down from that, you can try a Togiharu. If you are interested in wa-handles, your options include Sakai Yusuke and Tadatsuna.

So as I look for those, I see that (for instance) the Sakai Yusuke is sometimes described as "Swedish stainless" and sometimes as "White No. 2 Steel." It looks to me like these are different things -- white steel is carbon steel of the sort that'd rust out if not cared for carefully, yes?

As for the sharpener, it looks like the "Asian" sharpeners are different primarily in that they have a 15 degree angle instead of a 20 degree angle. Is 15 degrees a typical blade angle for the sorts of knives we're talking about here? Honestly, though, if it came down to having to buy a new machine, probably I'd just look at hand-sharpening options, so I suppose the question is whether a 20 degree machine sharpened angle is totally unacceptable -- based on the tenor of the responses here so far, I suspect I can guess the answer to this one...
 
So as I look for those, I see that (for instance) the Sakai Yusuke is sometimes described as "Swedish stainless" and sometimes as "White No. 2 Steel." It looks to me like these are different things -- white steel is carbon steel of the sort that'd rust out if not cared for carefully, yes?

As for the sharpener, it looks like the "Asian" sharpeners are different primarily in that they have a 15 degree angle instead of a 20 degree angle. Is 15 degrees a typical blade angle for the sorts of knives we're talking about here? Honestly, though, if it came down to having to buy a new machine, probably I'd just look at hand-sharpening options, so I suppose the question is whether a 20 degree machine sharpened angle is totally unacceptable -- based on the tenor of the responses here so far, I suspect I can guess the answer to this one...
White steel is not stain resistant, yes.

It is not a question of what is acceptable. Both angles will work. The question is whether you want to drive your sports car with tires made for a off-roader. Henckels are designed to take a beating: soft and thick. Japanese knives tend toward performance: hard and thin. With an auto-sharpener, you just don't want to go too hard and thin or you'll never come out with a pristine edge. Most of us here, have obviously gone down the waterstone route and we are happy here. :)

I should clarify...
15 x 2 is 30 deg included angle. That's a fairly "thin" edge. (Ultimate thinness is about 20 deg total included angle on the finest steels.) You also want a "thin" knife. 20 x 2 is 40 deg included angle. That's half way to the angle I'd sharpen an ax at. (In the spirit of full disclosure, I admit, I have never actually sharpened an ax.)
 
It is not a question of what is acceptable. Both angles will work. The question is whether you want to drive your sports car with tires made for a off-roader. Henckels are designed to take a beating: soft and thick. Japanese knives tend toward performance: hard and thin. With an auto-sharpener, you just don't want to go too hard and thin or you'll never come out with a pristine edge. Most of us here, have obviously gone down the waterstone route and we are happy here. :)

Ah, thanks! That's a point I hadn't considered. I wasn't really worried about the machine sharpening, because I've read enough about sharpening in enough places to have come to the conclusion that it's just fine -- but that's in the context of the wider angles on Western knives, and I can certainly see that it'd be a different story on Asian knives.

So, okay, I'll probably end up down that waterstone road and will have to read up on that. But I still don't want a knife that I need to worry about ruining if I leave it sitting around without immediately cleaning and drying it.

Notaskinnychef upthread recommended Carbonext, which seems to be a stain/rust-resistant carbon steel. The idea of a magical metal that has the advantages of carbon steel but not its disadvantages sounds too good to be true, especially at the cheap prices it goes for. What's the catch there?
 
I am surprised at this. ;)

me too! i've on two occasions been lucky enough to sharpen traditional Scandanavian axes (a Gransfors and an old Bilnas), and they are great fun. files followed by Styria whetstones is how my dad always sharpened his axes, and that's how i did these two, and it worked great. they both easy shaved arm hair when i was done, though i don't think i'd want to cut carrots with them.

if i wanted a high end, no-fuss knife, i'd buy a Heiji semi-stainless. scratch that, i've bought two Heiji semi-stainless, so there is no "if." i wouldn't spend that kinda money without knowing how to sharpen, though.
 
Mario stainless custom- in budget, stainless, awesome performance, although you will need water stones I'd recommend gesshin 600 and gesshin 6k both splash and go easy to use and work fast.

Can't go wrong with that combo.
 
I disagree. The geometry and profile of Japanese and Japanese-styled knives is already a significant upgrade. You will also see an increase in the amount of time that you are able to derive joy from any given edge. :) You just need to be wary of purchasing something that is going to microchip on your auto-sharpener. I know Chef's Choice makes a model for asian knives. That will be a significant upgrade as well.

I'm impressed! And this objective, down to earth reply from a founding member.
 
I've been in the world of high end folders but have recently started sharpening my new interest of kitchen knives. Since I'm somewhat lazy at sharpening I use an Edge Pro to set the primary bevel at <30 degrees inclusive and then touch up at 30 degrees for a small micro bevel. Seems to work for my daily home cooking chores. Not much work and will still push-cut a soft tomato depending on the knife grind (not the edge finishing).
 
Maybe you learn to strop and send off the knife to be sharpened by Dave or Jon.
 
I am surprised at this. ;)
Well, I've thought about it but no. No axes, yet. I do have an ax but I've probably used it twice in my life. With regard to the OP's question, if you are going to go the way of waterstone sharpening, you really have a ton of options. If you are okay with wa-handles, I would second Heiji semistainless or Gengetsu "stainless." The Mario suggestion would also be a good choice. For westerns I might choose a Gesshin Kagero or Blazen.

The CarboNEXT is among the best bang for the buck lower cost knives but not in the same class as the knives I and others just listed. It does stain and turns a blotchy, dull, gray color, if that matters to you.
 
Im sorry that you wont be going with a Takeda Large cleaver as your first chefs knife:( Welcome to the forum!
 
You might want to consider a different sharpening system that is a little more versatile than the machines, but much simpler than learning wetstones.
I've never used either one, but I'm sure someone else can comment on their effectiveness.

This is very simple, but also cheap enough to try: http://epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=86677

The Edgepro is well regarded, but more expensive: http://epicedge.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=1274&cat=Edge+Pro+Sharpening+Systems

ETA: These links are just the first ones that came to mind to show you the alternatives, there are other places to find these, although epicedge is a very reputable store.
 
I admit, I have never actually sharpened an ax.)

Funny enough, I'm in the process of sharpening and old axe that a friend wanted me to mess with. It literally was the dullest most red-rusted piece of steel that I have ever seen in my life...but I thought it would be fun to try by hand (don't own a belt sander).

Used my dremel to remove all the rust, but sharpening was a different story...could not do it like a knife with the stone stable and holding the axe in my hands -- instead, it was easier to stabilize the axe and rub stones (i.e. Takeda's way) onto the edge in a rounding fashion to go with the convexity of the blade.

On a scale from 0-10, this thing was a 0.5 to start off in both looks and cutting ability. But now I would say it looks like a 5, and although I'm not completely done...I feel it will cut like a 7 (relatively speaking of course).

I wouldn't want to do this again, but it was fun to experiment.
 
Most axes are first sharpened with a file, then edge is refined with a sone if needed. The steel isn't all that hard.
 
Most axes are first sharpened with a file, then edge is refined with a sone if needed. The steel isn't all that hard.

yep, though traditional Scandinavian axes are quite hard, and took a while even with good files.
 
Mario stainless custom

I've been able to find most of the things people are mentioning here by Google, but this time I just get Mario Batali knife links, which I strongly suspect isn't what you mean.

Link?
 
Back
Top