intro & questions: first 'true' japanese knife - help needed

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Matus

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Hello! I am new here, but I am not entirely new to knives (though certainly not an expert). I live in Germany, though I come from Slovakia. I am not a knife collector, but have a strong appreciation of a well made (and practical) knives. So knives like Mora 2000 or Iisaki Aito have found way to our home (I even got a Ikari from Jukka Hankala to my best friend as a present)

But now to kitchen knives :)

Browsing around this forum already yielded a lot of information, so I suppose I am on the right address to ask a few question concerning japanese kitchen knives.

So - I have decided to 'upgrade' our kitchen knife selection which currently contains only 2 knives worth mentioning (and keeping) One is Wüsthof Dreizak knife from Soligen with 16cm Blade that is strong enough to be used around bones (not a cleaver though) and the other is Kai SHEN with 6" blade (which I got before the price went up in Germany).

The SHEN was the first attempt to get a japanese styled knife. It's VG-10 core is rather easy to sharpen (I have a sharpener set from KME - not the best, but uses 4" DMT diamond steels) and holds edge quite well. BUT it has a week side too - and that is the toughness. As the VG-10 forms only the core of the knife and the rest (of the every thin blade) is soft stainless damascus - the knife could be bend with bare hands - it ti would remain that way! I do realize that this knife is a slicer, but sometimes one may accidentally apply force transversally and the knife could get bend. It does does not induce much confidence. Therefore before investing in another knife or two I thought I should get more informed first.

So after lengthy introduction - what am I looking for?

A)
- 240 mm (or even 270 mm) long knife - probably Guyto or Yanagiba. Mostly for slicing meat.
- stainless (I know I know ...) or at least weakly staining steel. Maybe stainless-clad carbon steel could work too.
- hand forged (if possible)
- probably with classical handle (octagonal)
- priced up to 300€, I would go for more if it would be 'the one' :angel:

B)
- 80 mm knife for little work
- preferably from the same 'series' as above


Here is the question Nr.1 (sort of):
Now the above sounds very general, but I do have questions/points about the steel. Namely - most (many) of japanese knives imported to western world are made in a similar way as the SHEN described above - so a high quality steel in the core of the blade clad with either damascus or plain stainless steel. And that is my problem - after the experience with the SHEN knife I have - I am not sure whether I should trust these designs as it is hard to say whether the cladding supports the knife, or is there just for looks.

I do understand that certain (mostly high-end) steels may actually need that kind of treatment (like SG-2, ZDP-189) because thy themselves they are too brittle. But one mostly sees knives with VG-10 core where the cladding may not be necessary (or am I wrong?).

And so finally question Nr.2:
Which knives should I look at? There are many producers, steel material is not always well mentioned and it is very hard to find how much quality (blade, F&F) am I actually going to get.

To give you an idea - knives I have looked at and liked (many of them are in fact core-clad knives):
- Hattori FH
- Kanetsugu Pro J Series (clad )
- Ryusen Blazen (clad SG-2)
- Hiro VG-10 knives
- Kato sa Masakage Kiri or Hikari (clad VG-10)
- Konosuke Sakura (on the expensive side)
- Kanetsune
- AOKI Gingami 3 Ichii
- Zensho/Yoshikane SKD Kasumi Gyuto
- AOKI Sakai Takayuki Suminagashi Tsuchime Wa Sujihiki
- Yoshikane SLD Damascus Kiritsuke

Thank you and sorry for a long post
 
Get a 240mm gyuto. Unless you are slicing a lot of boneless raw fish you don't need a yanagiba.

Sanmai (cladded) construction is perfectly fine and you have nothing to worry about there. The purpose of this is to make sharpening the knife much easier by surrounding it with a softer metal. Damascus or not that part is only aesthetic. Honyaki (monosteel) construction is far more difficult to forge properly and further more it can be much more difficult to sharpen especially so for beginners. Not to mention the very substantial increase in price to the consumer.

Don't worry about sanmai. You aren't going to break or bend anything. You shouldn't be using any knife as a prying or twisting tool anyway.

That being said, I think a 240mm Hiromoto AS might just be perfect for your needs.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html
 
Thank you. Certainly no prying with knives in our kitchen!

So I would conclude that most sanmai are better made then SHEN knives .. ?

I have already had a look at Hiromoto AS. It would fit the bill (actually on the cheap side), I would just prefer japanese traditional design.
 
The Hiromoto that ThEoRy recommends is the knife that I nearly bought. If you really want the Wa (Japanese style) handle though, you might want to look at this one. I don't know much about these knives, but JCK seem to only sell decent knives.... This one seems to cover everything you mentioned. Handle type, stainless, price, etc....

http://japanesechefsknife.com/FurinkazanW1Series.html#W1-6


If you are considering "a gyuto or a yanagiba" you might want to consider a sujihiki from the same range. Yanagiba as I understand it is mainly made for slicing raw fish perfectly and the blades are more difficult to sharpen than on sujihikis, which are western style edges, and more suitable for the kind of things you mentioned.

As for the 8cm knife, that range does a 120mm petty, but you might want to try something from a different range just for the variety as its kind of addictive seeing the different kinds of blade. EG:

http://japanesechefsknife.com/MolybdenumSeries.html#No.534

or a bit dearer:

http://japanesechefsknife.com/HattoriForumHighEndChefsKnives.html#FH%20Parer

As far as I know (based on a couple of weeks searching kitchen knife sites) you won't easily find an 8cm wa-handled knife.

As I understand it, the reason for stainless cladding is so that you can get the advantage of a carbon steel edge (sharpness & retention) but don't have to worry so much about washing and drying the knife as you do with a full carbon blade.
 
Yanagiba as I understand it is mainly made for slicing raw fish perfectly and the blades are more difficult to sharpen than on sujihikis, which are western style edges, and more suitable for the kind of things you mentioned.

Personally, I've found single bevel knives to be easier to sharpen than most double bevel knives. Yanagibas, while not all-purpose slicers, are used for more than slicing raw fish.

And what type of qualities are you looking for in your knife? What is the most important thing to you? Smoothness of cutting/lack of wedging? Food release? How light/heavy of a knife are you looking for? Edge retention? Ease of sharpening?
 
The OP posted that he wants stainless, or at least weakly staining steel, or stainless-clad carbon steel. The Masamoto KS is none of these.

It's carbon steel. And it stains.

I shall consider myself told.

Good job someone is doing QC on these replies.


The Masamoto is pretty though, isn't it, Michael? Maybe he will be tempted?

:sofa:
 
I shall consider myself told.

Good job someone is doing QC on these replies.


The Masamoto is pretty though, isn't it, Michael? Maybe he will be tempted?

:sofa:

It's up to original poster (OP). It's an ok looking knife, but from the ones I've seen, they have rough fit and finish, which is always a no-go for me. I want a knife out of the box that has the spine and choil rounded, that's consistently made and ready to go right out of the box. From what I've seen, it doesn't have a rounded choil or spine, and I've read here from people who are knowledgeable, the KS does not have great fit and finish and the grind can vary. Also, I recall someone that I know commenting that the handles on the KS are sometimes not very good.

I've never used a KS so I'm not one to say about its cutting performance. A number of other people here own them, have used them and really like(d) them. But, I'm not going to recommend it or any other carbon steel knife (or even a clad carbon steel knife). Most of the knives the OP identified are extremely stain-resistant. That leads me to believe that he knows he does not want to deal with the day to day care (not maintenance) of a carbon steel knife.

Personally, I don't believe in recommending what I like without knowing what the person wants, whether it's food, wine, knives, cars or anything. What I like can be completely different from what someone else likes. And, because I have no personal experience with the knives he listed, I'm not going to recommend any of those listed. And, I also don't know what he's looking for in a knife. So, I'm not going to recommend anything until I know more and the OP asks.

Also, most of these knives are what I would consider medium thickness knives. They're not thick, but none of these, from what I know, are lasers. I don't recall reading from people much more knowledgeable than me that any of these knives are that thin behind the edge, which is critical in my experience for a good performing knife. But, again, I've never seen or used any of the knives listed.

As for pretty, pretty doesn't necessarily make a good knife. I wish that were the case, but it's not. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people have said the KS is a great cutter. I just don't know.

But, since the OP is in Europe, if he's concerned about shipping, he might want to take a look at Bluewayjapan.
 
But, I'm not going to recommend it or any other carbon steel knife (or even a clad carbon steel knife). Most of the knives the OP identified are extremely stain-resistant. That leads me to believe that he knows he does not want to deal with the day to day care (not maintenance) of a carbon steel knife.

The first one I linked to seems to tick his boxes.
 
Yes, it does meet the OP's general requirements. But, without knowing more about what he's looking for in terms of cutting performance, it's hard to say if it's a good match. It's a pretty thick knife at the spine. And, if I recall correctly, a member here previously had issues with delamination or something like that.

A friend of mine has or used to have that knife. This is someone who has dozens of knives and tried many more, and is an accomplished sharpener. As I recall, he thought it was an okay knife, but not a great cutter.

For my friend, and for me, a great cutting/performing knife is what we're looking for. I learned what a great cutting knife was from him by using some of the knives he owned and recommended. Hell, if a Shun was a great performing knife, I would recommend it.

Isn't the bottom line how well a knife cuts? That's why I'm more interested in the performance characteristics he's looking for more than trying to pick and choose knives that meet his basic criteria. And, I will add that I'm not a great sharpener, but even with my level of sharpening, it's easy to see how one knife vs. another is a better cutter. Sharpness is one factor of many that makes a knife a superior cutting knife.
 
Yes, it does meet the OP's general requirements. But, without knowing more about what he's looking for in cutting performance, it's hard to say if it's a good match. It's a pretty thick knife at the spine. And, if I recall correctly, a member here previously had issues with delamination or something like that.

A friend of mine has or used to have that knife. This is someone who has dozens of knives and tried many more, and is an accomplished sharpener. As I recall, he thought it was an okay knife, but not great.

A thread on the Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan is here:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...Ka-Zan-gyuto-is-a-good-quality-reliable-knife

Kalaeb had this to say about them:

"The knives are not consistant, some reports have excellent fit and finish, others not so much. There are now two options to purchase a thick and a thin. I bought mine when it was only the thin version and it cut well, but was "chippy", and needed to reduce the bevel angle and added a micro bevel to correct the issue. Reports that I have heard suggest the thicker versions do not cut well at all.

The knife that I had was severly lacking in the fit and finish department, including sharp spine, choil and some delamination issues. I was able to correct all the issues, in a night with some wet/dry sand paper, but is something you should be aware of.

In short, the knife takes some work to get it primed, if you don't want to put forth the work in a mid $200.00, I would not buy it."


What about the wa-handled version of the Kagayaki VG10?

http://japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIVG-10.html
 
A thread on the Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan is here:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...Ka-Zan-gyuto-is-a-good-quality-reliable-knife

Kalaeb had this to say about them:

"The knives are not consistant, some reports have excellent fit and finish, others not so much. There are now two options to purchase a thick and a thin. I bought mine when it was only the thin version and it cut well, but was "chippy", and needed to reduce the bevel angle and added a micro bevel to correct the issue. Reports that I have heard suggest the thicker versions do not cut well at all.

The knife that I had was severly lacking in the fit and finish department, including sharp spine, choil and some delamination issues. I was able to correct all the issues, in a night with some wet/dry sand paper, but is something you should be aware of.

In short, the knife takes some work to get it primed, if you don't want to put forth the work in a mid $200.00, I would not buy it."


What about the wa-handled version of the Kagayaki VG10?

http://japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIVG-10.html

Thanks for the link and info, Rick. There you go, rdpx.

(To rdpx - I value what Pensacola Tiger writes. He's used a lot/owned a lot of knives, and I've found his observations to be very similar to what I've experienced or what others have observed and written. You would do well to pay attention to what he writes. Similarly, kalaeb rehandles knives and I've bought a knife from him. His description of the performance of the knife I bought from him was the same as what I observed. Consequently, I value his opinions as well.)

I've never used the Kagayaki so I can't say anything about it. Rick, you've used/owned one, right?
 
I appear to have violated some forum etiquette.

Sorry everyone!
Will try harder.

:newhere:
 
You guys are just wonderful :knife: Let me go through your replies to so that I can also answer the questions that appeared in the process:

- rdpx -
http://japanesechefsknife.com/FurinkazanW1Series.html#W1-6
I do like this one - carbon core with stainless cladding could work. The finish seems to look a bit 'rough' on the photos. The blade with 3.8 mm is on the thicker side, but on the other hand is relatively wide so that is probably OK.

The Hattori FH (solid VG-10) series seems to be highly regarded. I would only prefer less western design.

- mhlee -
The long knife is planned most for meat slicing or maybe for large vegetables or such. NOT for hard cheese or salami.
I would prefer lighter well balanced knife with hight edge retention.

The knife should not be too thick - that of course partially depends on the width of the blade. Wider blade will probably be thicker on the spine. But it probably should be a bit thicker than my 6" SHUN (VERY thin) given the length will be around 9-10".

I am not sure about the bevel - I have never used one-sided bevels before, so I do not know what to expect. BTW both me and my wife are right-handed.

Stainless or not: I do realize that for good reasons most knives available are not stainless, but I am not sure I am ready to handle knife made purely out of carbon steel in a kitchen. Carbon knives really need to be treated immediately after AFAIK use and that just seems a bit impractical. Also - the stain (which can no really be 100% avoided) tends to be 'smelled' on the food sometimes. So - stainless or nearly stainless would be preferred ...

The Looks: as I already mentioned - I would prefer japanese design with classical handle. The knife should not have rough finish. It should look 'consistent with itself', so to speak (not necessarily 'pretty') - the blade may of course shows signs of the process - in particular if it was hand forged. The mentioned Masamoto KS would probably not pass this part, even though the photos from the link would not suggest that.

Just an example:
http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/pro...ke--26-cm--handgeschmiedet-und--signiert.html
http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/pro...-sujihiki--24-cm-klingenlaenge--rostfrei.html

Sharpening: right now I have sharpening set from KME sharpeners which allows to clamp the knife and use a constant angle. If that would not be optimal I would be ready (in the future) to get proper sharpening stones.
I have no problem to sharpen the SHEN knife in a very short time, if that is of any help.

- Pensacola Tiger -
Thanks. The KAGAYAKI VG-10 (ES) Series would generally be fine, but I would prefer japanese design.

****

Any opinions on the knives available via: http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de ? This is so far the largest German shop selling japanese knives that I found.
 
You guys are just wonderful :knife: Let me go through your replies to so that I can also answer the questions that appeared in the process:

- rdpx -
http://japanesechefsknife.com/FurinkazanW1Series.html#W1-6
I do like this one - carbon core with stainless cladding could work. The finish seems to look a bit 'rough' on the photos. The blade with 3.8 mm is on the thicker side, but on the other hand is relatively wide so that is probably OK.

The Hattori FH (solid VG-10) series seems to be highly regarded. I would only prefer less western design.

- mhlee -
The long knife is planned most for meat slicing or maybe for large vegetables or such. NOT for hard cheese or salami.
I would prefer lighter well balanced knife with hight edge retention.

The knife should not be too thick - that of course partially depends on the width of the blade. Wider blade will probably be thicker on the spine. But it probably should be a bit thicker than my 6" SHUN (VERY thin) given the length will be around 9-10".

I am not sure about the bevel - I have never used one-sided bevels before, so I do not know what to expect. BTW both me and my wife are right-handed.

Stainless or not: I do realize that for good reasons most knives available are not stainless, but I am not sure I am ready to handle knife made purely out of carbon steel in a kitchen. Carbon knives really need to be treated immediately after AFAIK use and that just seems a bit impractical. Also - the stain (which can no really be 100% avoided) tends to be 'smelled' on the food sometimes. So - stainless or nearly stainless would be preferred ...

The Looks: as I already mentioned - I would prefer japanese design with classical handle. The knife should not have rough finish. It should look 'consistent with itself', so to speak (not necessarily 'pretty') - the blade may of course shows signs of the process - in particular if it was hand forged. The mentioned Masamoto KS would probably not pass this part, even though the photos from the link would not suggest that.

Just an example:
http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/pro...ke--26-cm--handgeschmiedet-und--signiert.html
http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/pro...-sujihiki--24-cm-klingenlaenge--rostfrei.html

Sharpening: right now I have sharpening set from KME sharpeners which allows to clamp the knife and use a constant angle. If that would not be optimal I would be ready (in the future) to get proper sharpening stones.
I have no problem to sharpen the SHEN knife in a very short time, if that is of any help.

- Pensacola Tiger -
Thanks. The KAGAYAKI VG-10 (ES) Series would generally be fine, but I would prefer japanese design.

****

Any opinions on the knives available via: http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de ? This is so far the largest German shop selling japanese knives that I found.

First, I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think you're going to find what's generally considered a "hand-forged" knife, i.e., an artisan made knife, forged and hammered knife, for 300 euros. Second, most "hand forged" Japanese knives are carbon steel. Third, if you're going to use it for vegetables, I would not recommend buying a single bevel knife.

I can't read German, but from what I see on that website, there are several brands that offer stainless steel knives such as Sakai Takayuki (they carry the Grand Cheff Sujihiki which is made with AEB-L steel, a well regarded steel, which is generally tough, with good edge retention; a number of members here have probably had/used the Grand Cheff Gyuto), Aoki Hamono has two lines of warikomi (carbon clad knife lines of white 2 and blue 2) as well as silver 3 which is a stainless steel. They also have the Suisin Inox Honyaki line which is very well regarded by members here. And Sakai Takyuki has a number of lines of knives that could fit what you're looking for.

But, aside from looks, balance and high edge retention, what kind of performance are you looking for? Something that slices cleanly and easily, or something that tougher and more substantial? How hard are you on your knives? Do you bang them on boards? And what kind of cutting board do you use?

If you have knives you're interested in, I would recommend that you (1) translate the description from German to English, (2) explain why you like the knife, and (3) be more specific about what you're going to cut. There are a LOT of vegetables in the world and there's a big difference in hardness and size between cabbage vs. carrots vs. pumpkins vs. rutabaga. And there's a difference between slicing thick slices of ham or roasts versus very thin slices of, for example, smoked salmon.

And, if you can, I would recommend going to that store to see what you like in person and holding knives and seeing what you like most. Balance is not going to be obvious through photos. They also have a lot of options, but the prices vary significantly.
 
One more thing, how stiff of a knife do you want? Completely stiff with no flex, or a little flex?
 
First, I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think you're going to find what's generally considered a "hand-forged" knife, i.e., an artisan made knife, forged and hammered knife, for 300 euros.

??

Yoshikane, Gengetsu, Kochi, Mizuno, to name but a few.
 
The Hattori FH (solid VG-10) series seems to be highly regarded. I would only prefer less western design.

Funnily enough, I was just looking at the FH series as I was thinking about asking you all about recommending one to some friends of mine who want to buy a gyuto. My friends don't want to get into forums, and all the knowledge etc, they just will want a really nice knife that will work OOTB and these are within their budget...

When I was looking for the link I found that there is actually a wa-gyuto (japanese handle) in the FH range, and wondered if that would not be a good purchase for Matus? It only comes in 270mmm, but this was suggested as maybe acceptable. It is stainless, great finish, good reputation, price spot on, etc etc?

Now I must stress here that I have no knowledge of this knife at all. I have never tried it and have not even spoken to anyone about it. In my own research over past week or two the FH knives seem to have always been highly spoken of in forums though - maybe someone with some experience of them could give an opinion of these knives? [This would also be helpful for me for when I come to suggest that my friends maybe get one - though that would be a 210 western-gyuto]

Hattori FH 270mm Wa-Gyuto

Thanks!!

Robert
:knife:
 
Funnily enough, I was just looking at the FH series as I was thinking about asking you all about recommending one to some friends of mine who want to buy a gyuto. My friends don't want to get into forums, and all the knowledge etc, they just will want a really nice knife that will work OOTB and these are within their budget...

When I was looking for the link I found that there is actually a wa-gyuto (japanese handle) in the FH range, and wondered if that would not be a good purchase for Matus? It only comes in 270mmm, but this was suggested as maybe acceptable. It is stainless, great finish, good reputation, price spot on, etc etc?

Now I must stress here that I have no knowledge of this knife at all. I have never tried it and have not even spoken to anyone about it. In my own research over past week or two the FH knives seem to have always been highly spoken of in forums though - maybe someone with some experience of them could give an opinion of these knives? [This would also be helpful for me for when I come to suggest that my friends maybe get one - though that would be a 210 western-gyuto]

Hattori FH 270mm Wa-Gyuto

Thanks!!

Robert
:knife:

My initial thought would be why this instead of a Yusuke or Ginga which are comparable in price? (the Yusuke is cheaper). Unless you wanted VG-10 instead of Swedish steel of course. Whilst I have no issue with VG-10 at all (although it has its share of detractors) I much prefer 13c26. That said there are folks who claim Hattori's VG-10 as being particularly good.
 
My initial thought would be why this instead of a Yusuke or Ginga which are comparable in price? (the Yusuke is cheaper). Unless you wanted VG-10 instead of Swedish steel of course. Whilst I have no issue with VG-10 at all (although it has its share of detractors) I much prefer 13c26. That said there are folks who claim Hattori's VG-10 as being particularly good.

With regards to this thread Matus has specified he wants wither stainless, semi-stainless or at most a carbon core/stainless clad knife.
With regards to my friends, they don't want anything that they have to fuss over. Stainless is the way for them I am sure of it.
 
With regards to this thread Matus has specified he wants wither stainless, semi-stainless or at most a carbon core/stainless clad knife.
With regards to my friends, they don't want anything that they have to fuss over. Stainless is the way for them I am sure of it.

Sandvik 13c26 (similar composition to Uddeholm AEB-L) is fully "stainless" (13% Cr).
 
??

Yoshikane, Gengetsu, Kochi, Mizuno, to name but a few.

One, he's looking for stainless or stainless-clad. Kochi, Mizuno are out.

Second, it looks like he's limiting himself to places in Germany. At that store, the hand-forged knives are EXPENSIVE.

If he's willing to buy a semi-stainless clad from the US or stainless from the US, I would recommend the Ginga or Gengetsu. But, it looks like the OP isn't looking at US retailers.
 
One, he's looking for stainless or stainless-clad. Kochi, Mizuno are out.

Second, it looks like he's limiting himself to places in Germany. At that store, the hand-forged knives are EXPENSIVE.

If he's willing to buy a semi-stainless clad from the US or stainless from the US, I would recommend the Ginga or Gengetsu. But, it looks like the OP isn't looking at US retailers.

The Yoshikane SKD from Maxim ticks all his boxes and is in the EU. Finish sharpening from Maksim is a boon for a newbie as well.

Agree that the German site is expensive, nowhere near as big a rip-off as the UK sites though!
 
If he's willing to buy a semi-stainless clad from the US or stainless from the US, I would recommend the Ginga or Gengetsu. But, it looks like the OP isn't looking at US retailers.

I was in same position and wasn't looking at US sites, though I am not sure why really.

(Not actually sure anything the OP said actually discounted US sites, its just that his links have only been from Japan or Germany so far)
 
I was in same position and wasn't looking at US sites, though I am not sure why really.
I'll tell you. Crazy shipping costs, HM custom duties, handling costs in UK.
Within Europe, moderate shipping costs, if any. With JCK, flat rate shipping costs only.
 
The Yoshikane SKD from Maxim ticks all his boxes and is in the EU. Finish sharpening from Maksim is a boon for a newbie as well.

Agree that the German site is expensive, nowhere near as big a rip-off as the UK sites though!

I don't see any SKD sujihikis on Maxim's site. I also didn't recommend Maxim's site because his maximum price was up to 300 euros. I know Maxim carries really nice items and didn't fall within the OP's price range.

But, since it looks like the OP is willing to exceed the 300 euro limit, then, yes, the SLD sujihikis are something the OP may want to consider once they're back in stock.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Yoshikane-Kitchen-Knives-s/1843.htm
 
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