New Ken Onion line/ vendor complaints about reviews

[Noodle Soup]

Sorry Spike, I should have known that was an incorrect way to phrase that. A "retired" Army Ranger.

[Crothcipt]

Ken (I really hope its you) sorry for some JA's that wanted a flame war. I myself wouldn't buy one, cause I don't use rocking motion. But I do know at least 4 other cooks I work with that prob. would go ape @#$% over them. I am just a little curious why you went with the belly like you did.

[Noodle Soup]

It was really him for sure.

[Lefty]

It was Ken....

[chinacats]

Interesting that he did come off as pretty defensive...that said it's probably not fair to invite an debate with someone who is unable to fully defend himself (kkf rules). I really don't understand his design philosophy and it would be interesting to hear where he is coming from--I can see using his gyuto for rock chopping herbs and that's about it. They do look somewhat 'artistic' though not practical. Anyone here use one?

[NO ChoP!]

I think 26 years in kitchens, 70 hour weeks with a knife in hand does make me an expert....

[ThEoRy]

I think 26 years in kitchens, 70 hour weeks with a knife in hand does make me an expert....

Crap, I still need 4 more years!@!

[mr drinky]

The blade geometry is horrible, and the handles are only useful if you were to use one singular grip through the span of your prep- which is ridiculous. I don't know what so called pro's he's been studying, but he needs to broaden his research spectrum...

THIS.

But what percentage of pro chefs actually use good knives? I'm not in the industry, but I've met more chefs that use crap blades than those who use anything resembling a good knife. You can tell the advice he is getting is from a rock chopper of some sort.

If I wanted advice on good guns or how to design a better gun, I wouldn't necessarily scour the ranks of military members. There are millions of military members (current and former) who have trained using a variety of weapons (guns) yet know nothing about good guns or appreciate them. Some do know a lot, but most don't. I would wager the same applies to chefs and knives, so I wouldn't be surprised if the input Onion gets doesn't necessarily lead to a better knife.

k.

[Justin0505]

I think that there are some pretty major traps that well established knife makers fall into when trying to transition to kitchen knives. It sounds like Ken tried to avoid some of them, but also ran face-first into some others.

One of biggest is that knifes, especially Japanese kitchen knives, are debugged technology: Collectively there have been millions of hours put into their evolution. I'm not not saying that improvements and adaptations are not possible, just that the likelihood of making a change that is both radical and GOOD, is very very slim. Which brings me to my other point that different for the sake of being different is almost always a bad thing when it comes to FUNCTIONAL design. Some folks mentioned that Ken needs to make knives with his own "style", and that necessitates some design choices with questionable function, but I'd argue that there are ways to do that without going too far. I think that it's very easy to recognize most of the custom maker from KKF's work.

The other has to do with ergonomics. Almost all other cutting applications require a hold on the knife that can resist substantial force, so a handle that really LOCKS the hand into a generalize "good" grip is beneficial. However, the vast majority of kitchen cutting tasks require very little force. So, features like finger grooves and that stupid "pinch here" bolster are not needed and are actually hindrances that limit subtle variations in grip position.... not to mention what that bolster does to sharpening... and speaking of sharpening, that "rain" finish looks cool and all, but it will look like crap after the first major thinning session and it's not user-replaceable.

But, I guess what Ken DOES know is how to make stuff that sells, and a part of that is playing to the majority: a majority that is certainly not populated by people like the regulars on KKF. These are folks that will seldom sharpen and when they do it will be w/ a pull-through device or a professional service. They have technique that's based on (what we would consider) dull knives with fat grinds that require lots of force and rocking. They don't understand subtle design and ergonomics and like design that seems obvious, not nuanced. I'm sure they will love these knives.

However, it does look like he got some things right: for one the materials sound good: high quality American components: G10 scales, Carpenter steel. I've never heard of BDZ1, but here's what I found:

Nominal Analysis
0.60/0.75 C, 1.00 Max. Mn, 0.025 Max. Ph, 0.01 Max. S, 1.00 Max. Si, 12.50/13.50 Cr, 0.75 Max. Mo, Bal. Fe

A martensitic steel chemically balanced and processed to provide a uniform, fine carbide structure. This structure has been suitable for the manufacture of thin sections and fine blanking operations. The alloy can achieve a tempered hardness capability into the low HRC 60’s.

CTS BDZ1 alloy is an excellent candidate for razor and utility blade applications, which demand high hardness and edge retention. This proprietary alloy is part of the Carpenter CTS family of alloys, offering superior edge retention and surface finish and an ability to be machined to a fine edge and consistent heat-treatability from lot to lot.

The knives are all up on Chef Work's web store now and they have youtube videos in their channel showing all of them (just search for the name of knife). Some look better or worse than others, but I would honestly like to try them all.
I think Ken should do what he should have BEFORE putting these into production which is come on board as a vendor and start a pass around.

[franzb69]

But what percentage of pro chefs actually use good knives?

in my limited experience a good number of chefs don't have good knives. and a good deal of those people who have "good knives" are carrying around wusthofs or henckels. and we all know how those perform. and those that do have japanese knives either have globals or shuns. and we know how those perform as well.

There are millions of military members (current and former) who have trained using a variety of weapons (guns) yet know nothing about good guns or appreciate them. Some do know a lot, but most don't. I would wager the same applies to chefs and knives

agreed.

But, I guess what Ken DOES know is how to make stuff that sells, and a part of that is playing to the majority: a majority that is certainly not populated by people like the regulars on KKF. These are folks that will seldom sharpen and when they do it will be w/ a pull-through device or a professional service. They have technique that's based on (what we would consider) dull knives with fat grinds that require lots of force and rocking. They don't understand subtle design and ergonomics and like design that seems obvious, not nuanced. I'm sure they will love these knives.

which is where his knives tend to sell. he's captured a market that needed filling. from a business standpoint, he does very well.


i really would love to hear ken out on his designs. maybe we can, uhm bend the rules this one time just so we can actually pick his brain without doing it a roundabout way?