san-mai vs monosteel

[Marko Tsourkan]

Not just Takeda. All thinly ground san mai (including Carters) will bend in your fingers if you apply enough pressure. If you don't believe me, try it at your own risk. Thicker san mai blades will bend too, but you will need to apply more force.

What will not bend is when cladding is comparable to core steel. Devin AEB-L san mai is essentially AEB-L throughout, same hardness after heat treating.

[Don Nguyen]

it was a joke, aqua regia being something that dissolves steel, so steel dissolved in liquid would be pretty soft and pretty non-stiff, being liquid.

Oh... well that went right over my head...

[keithsaltydog]

Folding Damascus(kitaji/layered-steel) do have longer kirenaga(better edge retention) than kasumi blade!!
San Mai Damascus(laminating Damascus) don't!!

Yes agree,and most all of Damascus in Kitichen knives is surface decoration,there are custom forgers folding many layers of carbon steel,but it is a small %.

I am not knocking Damascus,some of these knives look great,esp. wt. custom exiotic wood handles.All I am saying is there are better deals out there in mono steels both Quality Stain Resistant & Carbons for production Kitchens.

[Larrin]

I certainly won't argue your knowledge of the properties of steel. That's definitely a losing battle on my part.
But, I wasn't claiming that I notice a difference between harder and softer steel, if that's what you inferred from my statement. I was just saying that in my (limited) experience, the san mai blades I've used have seemed to have less flex than the monosteel knives I've used. Obviously, that's quite a small sample, and I guess probably says more about those particular knives than it does about the inherent differences in blade construction.
I'd certainly like to hear the scoop on this though. Are there any metallurgical factors at play concerning the stiffness between mono/clad blades, or is it just down to the properties of individual knives?

Any difference from flex would be from thickness and geometry. The only complicating factor would be tension from the steels having different size changes post heat treatment. However, that still wouldn't decrease stiffness. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus. The difference in properties between soft and hard steel comes at yielding. Softer steels have a lower yield point, or in other words, they require less bending to stay bent.

[Chefdog]

Any difference from flex would be from thickness and geometry. The only complicating factor would be tension from the steels having different size changes post heat treatment. However, that still wouldn't decrease stiffness. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus. The difference in properties between soft and hard steel comes at yielding. Softer steels have a lower yield point, or in other words, they require less bending to stay bent.

Larrin,
Thanks, I think
If I understand correctly (which is a big assumption), what that means to the layman is:
The differences are just due to the variances between knives, nothin more.

Thank you. Even if I have to read them several times, I always enjoy and learn from deciphering your posts.

[keithsaltydog]

Not just Takeda. All thinly ground san mai (including Carters) will bend in your fingers if you apply enough pressure. If you don't believe me, try it at your own risk. Thicker san mai blades will bend too, but you will need to apply more force.

What will not bend is when cladding is comparable to core steel. Devin AEB-L san mai is essentially AEB-L throughout, same hardness after heat treating.

Mark what is the advantage of making a San Mai blade out of the same steel eg. AEB-L?Is it Functional or Asthetic or both?

[Von blewitt]

Mark what is the advantage of making a San Mai blade out of the same steel eg. AEB-L?Is it Functional or Asthetic or both?

I think he's talking about AEB-L Damascus clad AEB-L. so aesthetics is the goal