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Thread: Pronounciations

  1. #31
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    Another one that drives me knuts is deba = "day-buh".
    Shibui - simplicity devoid of unnecessary elements

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhlee View Post
    Did you watch the whole video? Even Murray says he's reminded by his wife to say "Ho-ne-su-ki" and make sure to pronounce the "u" in "su", not "ho-ne-ski" which is how he says it and is incorrect.

    It's not "skeh" or "skay" like "skeletal" or "ski", respectively. It's not "ko-no-ske" or "ho-ne-ski." "Su-ke" and "su-ki" are each two syllables first of all, and second of all, even if the "u" is not audible, you'll hear that it is two syllables. What specific words have you heard in your Japanese shows with subtitles? Names, places? Have you actually heard people talk about knives in the shows? The suffix "su-ke" is somewhat common in names, e.g., Konosuke, Daisuke (Matsuzaka). In "Daisuke," the "su" is rather clearly pronounced. "Suki" is both a prefix and a suffix in words in Japanese. Would you pronounce "Sukiyaki" "ski-yaki"? No.

    You're taking sample of the language and trying to apply it universally. (Which is, ironically, one of the biggest problems of Japanese people learning English; there are so few universal rules that apply to the English language, unlike Japanese, that Japanese people often times have trouble pronouncing words in English because Japanese is based on a phonetic alphabet and if you say every letter, you will be able to enunciate the word, unlike English, e.g., "the" vs. "their" vs. "them" vs. "thermometer," which all start with "the" but all sound different.)
    Thanks for the explanation. I've always wondered about that; sometimes I would hear the "u" and sometimes I wouldn't. I admit, I didn't pronounce the "u"s and ordered beef ski-yaki a few times

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mpukas View Post
    Yes, I did watch the entire video. That's why I asked the question.

    I understand what Murray says about pronouncing the "u" sound and not condensing it to "ski".

    blah blah blah

    You can hear Morimoto say kirit-skeh;

    Are you gonna say he's not pronouncing the name of the knife corretly?

    I'm just trying to understand the proper/correct way of saying it, because I hear it pronounced differently. I also get what you are saying about TV/videos not being accurate/correct/appropriate for every day conversation. And, I think your advice to pronounce every syllable is good.
    You're not hearing him correctly. He clearly says "ki-ri-tsu-ke." Especially when he says "u-su-ba ki-ri-tsu-ke." Clearly not "kirit-skeh." Listen for the syllables. There is no "rit" letter in Japanese. What you consider "rit" and "skeh" is actually "ri" "tsu" "ke." If you listen when he says "usuba kiritsuke", the "tsu" sound and syllable is very clear at around 43 seconds.

    I also think you're thinking of this from an English perspective. Just forget trying to translate this to English or relying on Japanese sub-titles or translations because most of them suck (another reason to ALWAYS take sub-titles and translations with a big chunk of salt). Consider that "tsa", "tse", "tsi", "tso" and "tsu" all sound different. (The first four sounds don't exist in the Japanese alphabet. This is only for explanation purposes.) If it was "kiritsake" or "kiritseke" or "kiritsike" or "kiritsoke" they would all sound different.

    By the way, what word are you using as a comparison for this "tskeh" sound? There isn't a single word that I know of that starts with "tsk" other than "tsk tsk" which isn't pronounced even close to "tskeh." Every word that starts with "ts" aside form "tsk" - pronounced "tisk" from what I know - has a vowel immediately after "ts." So, even in the English language, there doesn't appear to be an equivalent word or pronunciation without a vowel after "ts."
    Michael
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  4. #34
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhlee View Post
    You're not hearing him correctly. He clearly says "ki-ri-tsu-ke." Especially when he says "u-su-ba ki-ri-tsu-ke." Clearly not "kirit-skeh." Listen for the syllables. There is no "rit" letter in Japanese. What you consider "rit" and "skeh" is actually "ri" "tsu" "ke." If you listen when he says "usuba kiritsuke", the "tsu" sound and syllable is very clear at around 43 seconds.

    I also think you're thinking of this from an English perspective. Just forget trying to translate this to English or relying on Japanese sub-titles or translations because most of them suck (another reason to ALWAYS take sub-titles and translations with a big chunk of salt). Consider that "tsa", "tse", "tsi", "tso" and "tsu" all sound different. (The first four sounds don't exist in the Japanese alphabet. This is only for explanation purposes.) If it was "kiritsake" or "kiritseke" or "kiritsike" or "kiritsoke" they would all sound different.

    By the way, what word are you using as a comparison for this "tskeh" sound? There isn't a single word that I know of that starts with "tsk" other than "tsk tsk" which isn't pronounced even close to "tskeh." Every word that starts with "ts" aside form "tsk" - pronounced "tisk" from what I know - has a vowel immediately after "ts." So, even in the English language, there doesn't appear to be an equivalent word or pronunciation without a vowel after "ts."
    To my ears, I still hear him say kirit-skeh. No matter how many times I listen to it. But now I understand where/how this pronunciation is derived. Most of the time the words I read and the way they are pronounced don't make sense to me. This helps a lot.

    I also hear a lot of non-Japanese people pronouncing their interpretations of what they are hearing without having an understanding of the Japanese language, and so the errors get perpetuated.

    I know the same thing happens to foreigners when they come to the US and try to learn/understand English. We don't always pronounce each letter/sound the same. As I understand it, there's less variation in pronunciation in Japanese and some other languages than there is in English. And regional accents/dialects have to be taken into account, no?

    Such as adding an “r” where there shouldn’t be one, as in “warsh {Pittsburg}” or “idear {Southern MA}”; or taking away an “r” as “ pahk the cah {Boston}”; or just about anything from New Jersey “wheya yous guys goin’?”
    Shibui - simplicity devoid of unnecessary elements

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lucretia's Avatar
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    I just know that I'll have to study up a lot before meeting any of you face to face, or you'll beat me to death for my horrible pronunciation.

    Or I could just say "That knife THAR!" and point a lot.

    (This thread is helpful. Thanks!)
    Now is not the time to bother me. And it's always now. Wiley Miller

  6. #36
    wow this is quite an argument on Japanese pronunciation... Come visit me so I can just pronounce them for you guys! If you aren't able to "hear" every sound, that just means you need to train your ears. I learned to "hear" sounds of English too. What I heard from my linguist professors is that the development of human ears (or ability to hear certain sounds) completes at the age of 3, and after that stage, to be able to recognize any foreign sounds that you didn't hear during the developmental stage will take a lot longer, if not sometimes impossible. For me, I still struggle a lot of "R" and "L", and "shi" and "si". Embarrassing story about my "shi" and "si" - I still get very nervous to say "please sit down" (how horrible would it be if I'm mistakenly saying "****"). So I just chose to say "please take a seat".

  7. #37
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sara@JKI View Post
    ...If you aren't able to "hear" every sound, that just means you need to train your ears. I learned to "hear" sounds of English too. What I heard from my linguist professors is that the development of human ears (or ability to hear certain sounds) completes at the age of 3, and after that stage, to be able to recognize any foreign sounds that you didn't hear during the developmental stage will take a lot longer, if not sometimes impossible...
    Hi Sara. Thanks for this.

    I also want to add that I go through the same thing with other Asian languauges as well, not just Japanese. Whether it's peoples names, places, foods, etc. I can't hear the way they are saying something.
    Shibui - simplicity devoid of unnecessary elements

  8. #38
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    I also want to add that I go through the same thing with other Asian languauges as well, not just Japanese. Whether it's peoples names, places, foods, etc. I can't hear the way they are saying something.
    i guess the advantages of being somewhat multilingual and in a diverse multicultural environment does have its merit in learning other countries' languages.

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