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Important Announcement KKF has new owners - Page 14
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Thread: KKF has new owners

  1. #131

    ecchef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkmk View Post
    Censorship only diminishes the forum and the admins, and looks childish and petty. If the critique of some vendors is substantive, it can stand on its own.

    This is a serious question: do you want this to be the premiere forum for discussion of kitchen knives, or do you want it to be a promotional platform for only a few brands/vendors? These are not the same thing, and I believe you're fooling yourselves if you think it can be both.
    A lot of newer members here are not aware of the reasons this forum came into existence, flourished and probably already is the premier forum for the discussion of kitchen knives. I'm not going to elaborate on those reasons, but suffice it to say that the harmony of this forum is partly maintained by the moderators ability & responsibility to establish rules, preclude inappropriate topics or language, and decide on whether or not a vendor meets the criteria to be permitted to conduct business here. Any vendor that is a member of this forum does not have special rights of protection or immunity from being critiqued by any member as long is the discussion is civil and objective. The change of ownership will have no substantive impact on the existing rules or they way they are enforced. The well being of the membership as a whole and the encouragement of healthy and constructive discourse will always be the primary objective.
    Though I could not caution all I still might warn a few; Don't raise your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools. - Robert Hunter

  2. #132
    Hello again everyone,
    I'm glad to see that you all feel free enough to post openly your opinions as it's good to get your feelings off of your chest and heard by the new owners.

    I'd like to address a few specifics mentioned above...

    The censors may appear childish to some yet necessary to others. If you believe that they're in place to serve only my intentions then you are ill informed and/or short sighted in your understanding of the situation. The history that caused the creation of this very forum directly relates to the individuals who are being censored. These censored entities are only a small percentage of all the vendors used by this community - we have the greatest percentage of the very best vendors here already. Also worth noting, is that I made a change to the censoring policies to once again allow the free discussion of these entities in the respect of allowing their names be shown, however, all links to their businesses are still blocked. Please understand that just because you feel it important to be able to post links to these sites doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with you.

    On the subject of Jim's comments (in this thread) and how some people have taken exception to them....I'm 100% certain that Jim wasn't meaning it the way it's being taken, if you knew him personally the way I do you'd likely agree. He's one of the few stand up gentlemen left in this world and does his very best to do right in all his actions. I also understand that it's difficult to get the tone of printed words and that he has been mis-understood. Jim's wish for this forum (and all it's members) is nothing but good things.

    As for my bad mouthing of certain people....I promise to do my best to curtail this type of behavior I realize that some people are sensitive or don't wish to hear the truth so I'll limit my comments to being vanilla in flavor. Unfortunately this will also have to include the truths spoken about products that certain vendors sell as I don't believe that all people have the ability to understand why this is being shared, they can not separate a well intentioned warning (to keep members from getting ripped off) from that of ill intent towards the vendor themselves. I expect that the new owners will hold me to the very same standards that all other members are held to as the current moderators and Jim have always done in the past.

    Again, thanks to everyone for all the kind words here. I positively look forward to moving on and getting going with all the work that's ahead and in once again taking a more active role in posting and sharing.

    Dave

  3. #133
    I love the fact that the 'other' vendor is starred out; I hope it stays that way. One of the first things about this forum that I came to love was not having to deal with the shilling that is hyper evident on other forums for Mark and his not so 'goods.'

    I for one think it is for the best and again why many people enjoy the more than relaxed atmosphere around these parts. The origins of this forum point towards the need to keep things as they have been; which have worked fine in my estimation.

    While I realize that some people do not enjoy this, I don't see the issue. If you want to discuss items that you can buy from the other vendor, go to any other knife forum and there is plenty of room to do just that. Most of those products and the service behind them is inferior; while the service/products from vendors here are constantly exceptional. If there is a problem here, it is usually taken care of in short order with no finger pointing involved.

    Cheers!

    edit--Just read Dave's post and it states what I tried to state so much better...I agree 100%. Thanks Dave!
    one man gathers what another man spills...

  4. #134
    Agree 100 % Again there is a reason why we have it so good here, no huge wars or fights and members keep going up.
    And i think no vendor is safe for critique here and never was.
    Do we loose couple of members here and there because of it yeah sure, but alternative is that we loose whole forum

  5. #135
    Dave you are, and will always be respected here. Thank you for what you have done, and will continue to contribute. I know I have been a PITA at times, but you have always had time for me and our discussions always ended with both of us having a better understanding.

    Thank you for addressing this issue, and I agree with you on the count that if a product is crap, call it crap. If an outside vendor is shilling, or representing bad product or has bad policies, then by all means call it what it is. Removing the asterisk's is awesome. That removes the censorship in my eyes. If a back link is given to any buisness that isn't a vendor here, then sure, block it. I just want this forum to be able to freely discuss ANY product by ANY maker/manufacturer with out having to "guess the word" be the game of the day.

    Again, thank you for having our backs.


    Feel free to visit my website, http://www.rodrigueknives.com
    Email pierre@rodrigueknives.com

  6. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martell View Post
    Hello again everyone,
    I'm glad to see that you all feel free enough to post openly your opinions as it's good to get your feelings off of your chest and heard by the new owners.

    I'd like to address a few specifics mentioned above...

    The censors may appear childish to some yet necessary to others. If you believe that they're in place to serve only my intentions then you are ill informed and/or short sighted in your understanding of the situation. The history that caused the creation of this very forum directly relates to the individuals who are being censored. These censored entities are only a small percentage of all the vendors used by this community - we have the greatest percentage of the very best vendors here already. Also worth noting, is that I made a change to the censoring policies to once again allow the free discussion of these entities in the respect of allowing their names be shown, however, all links to their businesses are still blocked. Please understand that just because you feel it important to be able to post links to these sites doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with you.

    On the subject of Jim's comments (in this thread) and how some people have taken exception to them....I'm 100% certain that Jim wasn't meaning it the way it's being taken, if you knew him personally the way I do you'd likely agree. He's one of the few stand up gentlemen left in this world and does his very best to do right in all his actions. I also understand that it's difficult to get the tone of printed words and that he has been mis-understood. Jim's wish for this forum (and all it's members) is nothing but good things.

    As for my bad mouthing of certain people....I promise to do my best to curtail this type of behavior I realize that some people are sensitive or don't wish to hear the truth so I'll limit my comments to being vanilla in flavor. Unfortunately this will also have to include the truths spoken about products that certain vendors sell as I don't believe that all people have the ability to understand why this is being shared, they can not separate a well intentioned warning (to keep members from getting ripped off) from that of ill intent towards the vendor themselves. I expect that the new owners will hold me to the very same standards that all other members are held to as the current moderators and Jim have always done in the past.

    Again, thanks to everyone for all the kind words here. I positively look forward to moving on and getting going with all the work that's ahead and in once again taking a more active role in posting and sharing.

    Dave
    I understand that you believe the censorship is appropriate. As a largely disinterested party, you should also know that the censorship itself is the single biggest thing that erodes confidence in the credibility of your opinions, and in this site. It honestly looks cowardly -- because it suggests that you don't actually have as much confidence in your convictions as you claim.

    I don't believe that's really the case, but that's how it looks.

    I understand that you put those rules in place because you didn't/don't trust the vendor. Unfortunately, it also has the effect of making it look like you don't trust the forum members. They, ultimately, are the ones who are being told what words they can say. In the short term, I understand why you might put those policies in place when founding a new forum. In the long term, it's corrosive to the sense of community for everyone -- because it says you don't trust us.

    Make clear, fair guidelines about shilling, flame wars, promotion, etc., and stick with them -- I think everyone here will benefit. Perhaps you most of all.

    And thanks again for all your hard work on the site. Seriously.

  7. #137
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martell View Post
    ...The censors may appear childish...
    Yes. End of discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martell View Post
    ...If you believe that they're in place to serve only my intentions then you are ill informed and/or short sighted in your understanding of the situation...
    You should be careful pointing fingers around here. Many of us do not appreciate being called ill informed and/or short sighted. Whenever you point a finger at someone, look at your hand, as you've got three pointing right back at yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martell View Post
    ...Also worth noting, is that I made a change to the censoring policies to once again allow the free discussion of these entities in the respect of allowing their names be shown, however, all links to their businesses are still blocked.
    I think it's fine if you want to ban Mark and Ken, and who ever else, from being members and/or vendors on KKF. That's legit. Publicly bad mouthing them because of your personal experiences is not. It's a good move on behalf of the forum to remove the silly censorship of their names.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martell View Post
    ...As for my bad mouthing of certain people....I promise to do my best to curtail this type of behavior I realize that some people are sensitive or don't wish to hear the truth so I'll limit my comments to being vanilla in flavor. Unfortunately this will also have to include the truths spoken about products that certain vendors sell as I don't believe that all people have the ability to understand why this is being shared, they can not separate a well intentioned warning (to keep members from getting ripped off) from that of ill intent towards the vendor themselves. I expect that the new owners will hold me to the very same standards that all other members are held to as the current moderators and Jim have always done in the past.
    This is just continuing the same passive-aggressive, childish attitude that partially led you had to create this place. In fact, you're the one who's sensitive, otherwise you wouldn't have the bans & censorship in place. Of course we want to hear your unbiased opinion about a product. And you can do that without getting personally involved.

    Truth is purely a matter of perspective. I bet Mark doesn't think he did anything wrong, and from his perspective you're the one who's making all the fuss and the accusations you've made are false.

    I'm not going to get into it about who's right or wrong, who's knowledgeable or credible, all I'm saying is grow up and move on. You've made a great place that we all love, and we appreciate it. Let it go so this place can continue to shine.
    Shibui - simplicity devoid of unnecessary elements

  8. #138
    mpukas, you've made it clear in the past that you're not fond of me and what I've done/do, I'm glad that you feel welcome to once again voice your opinion - you're being heard - that's important to you and we respect that.

  9. #139
    Senior Member Justin0505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreRodrigue View Post
    Removing the asterisk's is awesome. That removes the censorship in my eyes. If a back link is given to any buisness that isn't a vendor here, then sure, block it. I just want this forum to be able to freely discuss ANY product by ANY maker/manufacturer with out having to "guess the word" be the game of the day.


    ±1
    Well said Pierre
    "I gotta tell ya, this is pretty terrific. Ha hahaha, YEAH!" - Moe (w/ 2 knives). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVt4U...layer_embedded

  10. #140

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    The problem is that only the people with the "Founding Member" badge understand what all this hostility, censorship and pettiness is about. I still don't know what "the other place" is. Not like you can ask. I've even asked in an email and got rebuffed. After all the OFFICIAL KKF policy is:

    Members will not be given an explanation when asking for details on blocked/censored words/phrases. Your understanding and cooperation in this matter is appreciated.
    I'm willing to bet it's that attitude right there that has more than a few people chomping at the bit and you're seeing that come out in this thread.

    -AJ

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