What constitutes a good sharpener?

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Don Nguyen

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I think I am getting decent with my sharpening, although I am still improving on many things.

I can get a knife to pass the 3-finger test, stick to the thumbnail, and push cut newspaper. It cuts food well.

I'm still working on getting a perfectly even bevel down the whole edge. My weaknesses tend to be the tip and heel, although they aren't too bad. I'm also working on removing as little metal as possible, but that's a tough one for me. One of my big problems I think is consistency. Each time I sit down and sharpen, I can get consistent angles, but I think I'm going at a different angle for each sharpening session. Maybe I'll just use a simple reference for the time being. Don't even ask me about asymmetry, I haven't got a clue how to approach that for a given knife.

My biggest problem though is getting a sense for what the knife needs, and seeing the big picture. I feel like I can get a knife sharp, but I am not a good sharpener (kind of like making decent bread through recipes, without understanding why the techniques work).

Any other things to consider? Thanks!
 
I'm not great, but have learned a lot by taking pics that I can blow up and see the 'damage' or the success. I do think the tips are my biggest weakness, but unless I pay close attention, I tend to neglect the heel area; sad because that area is usually fairly easy to get right. I think you've already discovered the 'touch,' going light enough to not remove much metal is also a good way to make for cleaner edges.

Pictures actually are the best way in my mind to 'see' the big picture.

Cheers
 
Alot depends on your aim wt sharpening.I would often put thin bevels on carbons for fruits & vegitables,Gyuto & cleaver.My dedicated Lobster cleaver was also thin & lite,but put a micro bevel to go thru the shell.Convex edge even on my heavy bone cleaver.So depends on the job.

For alot of the show knives on this forum,a good looking even edge is the aim,& not to scratch the sides of the blade.When I started sharpening other's Damascus blades,had to slow down & be more careful thinning so the polished back bevel is even.

Move fast on the stones wt. my carbons,cause low starting angles,even the mud can scuff higher on the blade,but the blades cut well but do not look as nice.All of blade road must be sharpened,nothing worse than a neglegted high heel.

I think as you progress in sharpening,it is a flow of steel on stone.Not stopping,confidence of your angle set,continual movement fr. heel to tip.Flip the blade over same thing.
 
Determining and executing the proper edge for the blade and it's jobs, burr removal, even bevels, proper thinning, consistency.
 
IMHO, like everything else that you do in the kitchen it comes down to 2 things:
1- Understanding the principles and techniques you are using to accomplish the task at hand.
2- Consistently and successfully executing those fundamental techniques.

Whether its making an omelet, or cutting in a consistent bevel, you have to understand the theory behind what you're doing. Then you have to practice until you can deliberately execute the technique every time.
 
personally

we look and yet we dont see, we touch and yet we do not feel, we listen adn yet we do not hear. Generally either one is our main representational system or input visual ( see),audio (Hearing) or kinesthetic ( touch/feel). In the case of knife sharpening.. the primaryrepresentational system has to be the sense of touch which may not be heightened for some people. IT can be developed. I also assume that if we can use all our senses in what ever we do, the results wle be far superior. But alas, I found out only later in life that my main system was only visual and yet I do not see and was a mediocre performer. KNife sharpening made me realise that I have to engage my 5 senses when ever I can in any task.

For sharpening, we need to develop to the stage that our sense of touch is heightened. IT calls for practice and practice. After feeling the edge for the burr and sharpness/ keeness regularly and if we do focus on it adn try to remember the feeling of it, eventually our fingers will remember it. Once you get the hang of it.. you know which shld be yr starting stone, roughly how many strokes or just a few laps on the finishing stone..

to learn any skill, its like riding a bicycle..
step one.. you know you cant do it
step 2.. you try and fail and each time you get better
Step 3.. Can do stage but must focus as if not yu will make mistakes and fall
step 4.. persevere adn it till enter the subconscious adn you can ride while smoking or even talking on the phone and at teh same time looking at the birds!

The same step applies in our quest in learning to sharpen. The big picture became clear for me was when i realized the following
1_ when 2 acute angles meet..it has to be sharp. IF I want it sharper it has to be thinner adn lower angle
2. Sharpening is just about steel removal. AS the knife is tapered.. it is thus not surprising that the heel area needs more work as it is thicker. FOr teh tip area.. because of the curve it does not come to contact with teh stone. Has to be worked separately. So remove steel where it is required. So do what it takes to remove the steel.
3.The burr/ folded steel needs to be knocked off unless we magically can feel when to stop at the optimum point. we have to knock it off.
4. FInally I like to use thumb and middle finger to feel the thickness to feel the thickness of the blade.

So do what it takes to achieve yr objective adn of course know the purpose / what you are trying to accomplish specifically with each stroke adn , With a little concerted effort, it will enter the subconscious level..

I hope this helps..


rgds d
 
Good points Zitangy.I use bicycle,babies learning to walk,& surfing as examples in my classes.
 
you're a good sharpener if you can get your knives really freaking sharp! that's all that matters to me anyway. even bevels, non scratched up sides, whatever, if the blade performs well then it's a good sharpening session.
 
+1 what panda said.

I basically look for the following.

1. Does it cut through the tomato with ease? Check

2. Does it cut with out causing the accordion effect? Check

3. Does it do 1 and 2 successfully 30 tomatoes down the line? Check

4. Repeat by replacing the underline with onion, bell pepper, meat of choice, etc.
 
Folks talk about the consistent bevels and what not. What about these knives that were ground unevenly so that the blades face is uneven and as a result youre bevel will never be straight all the way through. What about the blades that are thick? Sure enough you can sharpen the edge well, but is that really all tht matters?

So a good sharpener imho is a guy with enough experience to properly evaluate each blade and being honest with himself about what needs to be done [and not looking at the time spent/money he charges], and looks to the story of the blade.
Does the blade require thinning? Does it require polishing? What about handle? Straightness, steel, purpose, owner, use, quality all make difference, to me. Maybe not in the effort put but result expected.

Just the edge achieved is not even close to being the most important.
 
This thread's weirding me out a bit.
 
Folks talk about the consistent bevels and what not. What about these knives that were ground unevenly so that the blades face is uneven and as a result youre bevel will never be straight all the way through. What about the blades that are thick? Sure enough you can sharpen the edge well, but is that really all tht matters?

So a good sharpener imho is a guy with enough experience to properly evaluate each blade and being honest with himself about what needs to be done [and not looking at the time spent/money he charges], and looks to the story of the blade.
Does the blade require thinning? Does it require polishing? What about handle? Straightness, steel, purpose, owner, use, quality all make difference, to me. Maybe not in the effort put but result expected.

Just the edge achieved is not even close to being the most important.

This is exactly what I was getting at! Thanks!

This thread's weirding me out a bit.

How so Tom?
 
I feel like sharpening is very over thought. I hope guys don't take this the wrong way, but a good sharpener maintains the original profile, except when a change is needed, and puts on an appropriate edge for the tasks at hand. They can also thin a knife properly, when it is needed. That's it, in my mind.

Poetry, shmoetry.
 
Happy Easter Lefty. I needed something to amuse me after feeding the tribe here . Thank you.
 
While we're at in, can someone describe what "thinning" is?

As you sharpen, the knife gets progressively thicker, and a relief bevel needs to be ground to restore performance. This illustration is from a good sharpening article by Chad Ward, http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

sharpen4.jpg


Note that many knives come OOTB needing to be thinned.
 
I believe that recording (if possible) your sharpening session is very helpful. I was doing a movie about sharpening yanagiba for Polish knifes forum and after that session I have learned more than after all my previous sessions. I had to edit movie, analyse it, watch it 100 times. Now I can see my mistakes and can't wait for another session to fix my mistakes. I highly recommend it to people who have problems with sharpening.
 
If it works for you....

I agree with this 100%. The way I sharpen probably isn't conventional but my knives perform exactly how I want them to so I see no reason to change. Knives are tools at the end of the day. It seems like sometimes people are scared of their knives
 
As you sharpen, the knife gets progressively thicker, and a relief bevel needs to be ground to restore performance. This illustration is from a good sharpening article by Chad Ward, http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

sharpen4.jpg


Note that many knives come OOTB needing to be thinned.

Thanks to all that have replied. Not that I'm at the point of needing to do this yet, nor have the skill, but how does one go about it? Lowest grit stone?
 
Thanks to all that have replied. Not that I'm at the point of needing to do this yet, nor have the skill, but how does one go about it? Lowest grit stone?

[video=youtube;twP_05UEHIM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=twP_05UEHIM[/video]
 
zitangy , you lost me around the second sentance. I gave up around half way through.
 
Honestly, SPEED is a big issue as well. I've worked in some hardcore places where I had to sharpen my knife 3-4 times a day. If it's taking you 10 min to sharpen your knife, something's wrong. Now, I find it annoying if people take 15min + to sharpen their knives (which I'm sure is very common cause that's how long it took me when I was getting started). I know it's fun, but you can't spend all day sharpening your knives man!
 
zitangy , you lost me around the second sentance. I gave up around half way through.

Hi

What I am trying to say is that for most people, our senses are not fully heightened. Most people's senses are just average and we mainly use one of the them as our primary input

You will use the three senses for sharpening :

IF yours already is heightened.. yu will have a steeper learning curve. If not, then it can be developed.

a)Touch: You need it to feel the sharpness and keeness, thickness of blade and the feedback off the stone, to realize teh amount of pressure that you are applying, teh feel when it cuts thru food or paper ( when testing) etc so that you can determine what you you need to do to attain the outcome.

I really doubt that you can tell the sharpness of a knife just by looking at it.

b)Hearing: ( sound) the scratchy sound of the burr from teh stone which will tell you that its almost done, the sound when you do a cut test say on paper.

c)Eyes :( visual) the geometry, profile, width of the bevel, any wire edges ( held at an angle against the light), straightness of the blade etc.

I suppose in cooking if you are only dependent on yr sight only.. then if the other chef can use all his senses ( 1)eyes, 2)ears ,3)olfactory ( smell) adn 4)taste dn 5) touch.. he wld have a serious serious advantage.

from my observation, we didn't have a program in school to develop or senses further. Most of it is by chance during our childhood and upbringing and to what we are exposed to. I also noticed that the talented people are heightened in a few of their primary senses.. Hearing, touch and sight. Presumably of which I believe, they are using 3 highly developed input systems and as when compared to a person whose primary mode is just sight (eyes) in everything they do and when they look and do not even see... they wld be miles apart.

suffice to say that the knife makers needs all three to be highly developed. They need to be creative in solving problems ( do what it takes) too as only when the problem/ challenge is overcomed , the desired outcome wld be attained. YOU can't be doing teh same thing over and over and expect a different result. SOmehting has to be changed adn youn play with the parameters available ( angle, pressure, grits etc)

I also believe that it shld be applied to all the things that we do for better results/ performance.

Feel free to pm me. It is a different subject/topic altogether

as always.. be well and stay sharp
rgds
D
 
A good sharpener gets the most out of his blade. Ninety percent of it is getting your primary edge keen and basic thinning. The last ten percent (more for thicker knives) is maintaining/modifying the geometry and finish of the knife overall. This part is more subtle and sometimes tricky to accomplish but to me, that is the difference between something I feel like getting rid of and something that gets me hot and bothered every time I pick it up. I'd say, most people that give it a good try get fairly comfortable with getting the primary edge keen and eventually tailor the sharpening to the steel and the purpose. Most of the thinning jobs I've seen are rudimentary at best and leave a lot of performance untapped.
 
Honestly, SPEED is a big issue as well. I've worked in some hardcore places where I had to sharpen my knife 3-4 times a day. If it's taking you 10 min to sharpen your knife, something's wrong. Now, I find it annoying if people take 15min + to sharpen their knives (which I'm sure is very common cause that's how long it took me when I was getting started). I know it's fun, but you can't spend all day sharpening your knives man!


Am I missing something, you need to sharpen three to four times a day? What is causing your edges to fail, so quickly? I take longer then 15 minutes to sharpen, but my edges last weeks if not months, depending upon the knife. In a restaurant, I'd assume the edge would last at least a day, and maybe as long as a week.

Jay
 

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