Heiji spa day

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EdipisReks

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I got to work on knives, and I put together an album with descriptions. The light didn't cooperate, and my wife was unfortunately not able to be my camera assistant (she had forgotten about it, and was gone doing stuff before I had the chance to remind her), so the pics aren't great. I had been hoping to take more progress shots, but hopefully the in between shots help people who have never sharpened these knives to understand what they should be looking at. I went for trying to show detail over aesthetics. This only shows what thinning with each stone did, and does not include sharpening (sharpening was done on 1000 Chosera, followed by 4000 Shapton Pro, followed by .1 boron on leather, and took very little time, as I had barely touched the edges of either knife). Stones used were 500 Beston, 800 King, green Synthetic aoto (green brick of joy), and Uchigimori finger stones. If you have any questions, please ask! I can give tips on re-finishing above the bevel line with sandpaper, but I managed to not scratch much, and I didn't want to take steel off just to take pics. The choil and tip shot were kinda blurry (hard to hold in the light I had), so if it's sunny tomorrow I will retake. The tip and the edge of both knives is very thin, however.

here is the album: http://imgur.com/a/TeLgq. you'll want to blow the pics up, full size, by clicking on the little gear icon that appears in the upper righthand corner of each picture, if you hover your cursor over the picture, and choosing view at full resolution.
 
should be able to now. it didn't want to link properly, for some reason.
 
The King 800 used to be one of Dave's favorite stones for "coloring" a bevel, though I haven't seen him talk much about it lately.

Nice job!
 
thanks guys! i could spend a lot more time polishing the knives up (i did so the first time i thinned the knives, as seen here, with the 240), but i find that the process shown gives very good performance while giving a reasonable look. i cut a lot of radishes and leeks, so the grit screws up the finish pretty quickly.
 
thanks mate! if you have any suggestions to improve, let me know.
 
Thanks Edipis, nicely done. Looks like no difficulty in consistently hitting the bevel.
 
Thanks Edipis, nicely done. Looks like no difficulty in consistently hitting the bevel.

there is some variation in the grind between the flat and the bevel line, but the bevels themselves are easy.
 
ukbmcxfh.jpg



Looks great!
 
Looking good, do you end up with a crisp shinogi at the top of the bevel, like with a yanagiba, or is it more of a blended transition?
 
the Heiji gyutos don't have a shinogi the same way a yanagi does. it's pretty crisp as seen here, but it has more blend. the trick is to only grind below the line.
 
So beautiful. Way more beautiful than mine. However, Heijis are a thing of beauty unto themselves no matter what so mine's is still purdy
 
I understand that the Heiji gyuto has a mostly flat blade from the spine to the shinogi and then a larger than usual bevel to the cutting edge. Now this might seem a silly question but being new and just learning how to sharpen Jknives I have to ask anyway. What happens if you thin above the shinogi of a Heiji? In other words you blend the shinogi and get rid of the firm and well delineated line while thinning it and giving it a hamaguri all the way up instead of stopping at the shinogi. Of course this would change the unique geometry of the Heiji but would it make the gyuto a more efficient cutter? Just curious.
 
having a hamaguri geomtry that far up the knife would make it thicker behind the edge than it needs to be. there is nothing special or magical about convexity, and it only makes sense in places where it makes sense.

which do you think will cut better?

this?

yE5aHPZ.jpg


or this?

P1ZGbFt.jpg
 
having a hamaguri geomtry that far up the knife would make it thicker behind the edge than it needs to be. there is nothing special or magical about convexity, and it only makes sense in places where it makes sense.

which do you think will cut better?

this?

yE5aHPZ.jpg


or this?

P1ZGbFt.jpg

Yes I know but what if you start with the geometry of the Heiji (which is like your second picture here) and then blend in the part around the shinogi where there is an angle between the bevel and the rest of the blade above the shinogi? Won't that make it a thinner knife then?
 
Yes I know but what if you start with the geometry of the Heiji (which is like your second picture here) and then blend in the part around the shinogi where there is an angle between the bevel and the rest of the blade above the shinogi? Won't that make it a thinner knife then?


What you are describing wouldn't, and "hamaguri" is not what you are describing. Hamaguri is something thst makes sense on a single bevel knife (where the edge is going to be thin, due to the chisel grind on the face and the concavity on the back: i've always been under the impression that it's called a clam shell edge because its convex on one side and concave on the other, like a clam shell), and you want to (mainly) improve edge stability and/or add a (quite minor) tendency for food to not stick as much. This kind of convexity involves a lot more than blending bevels.

What you are describing is a messed up Heiji, as the angle difference is part of what makes them so resistant to stickage: a nice big thin piece of potato can stick to the bevel, and it can stick to the flat, but it has a hard time sticking to both at the same time.

Blending in the bevel to the flat allows Mr Potato slice to stick as much as he wants. Raising the line would make it thinner behind the edge, but then you would start getting more food stickage, as there is more bevel for things to stick to, which starts defeating the purpose. This is the balancing act. Both of my knives have wider bevels, and thus higher shinogis, than stock. I stopped raising the lines, and thus widening the bevels, when I decided stickage was being too adversely affected. Look at the choil shot I posted; I don't think the edge needs to be much thinner.

Hope that clears it up. It's easy to understand with knife in hand.
 
Bending the bevel will give you a convex ground knife like most other knives, to some extent. It will cut better because there are no shoulders. However it's more difficult to thin and may have more stiction.

Edipis, I understand hamaguri to refer to a closed clam. Convex coming to a point from both sides. Single bevel hamaguri is like half a clam.
 
Bending the bevel will give you a convex ground knife like most other knives, to some extent. It will cut better because there are no shoulders. However it's more difficult to thin and may have more stiction.

blending the bevel won't do much on a Heiji, due to how tall the bevels are. with a knife with shorter bevels, sure.



Edipis, I understand hamaguri to refer to a closed clam. Convex coming to a point from both sides. Single bevel hamaguri is like half a clam.

maybe, but a convexed single bevel knife looks a lot more like half a clamshell than a double beveled knife convexed on both sides looks like a closed clam, in my opinion.
 
the Heiji gyutos don't have a shinogi the same way a yanagi does. it's pretty crisp as seen here, but it has more blend. the trick is to only grind below the line.

Cool i follow the same approach with my KU knives which seem to have a similar style of grind, and Carter SFGZ. Where the top section of Heiji's looks to have been ground i was wondering if there was any smoothing done of the transition. I'm a fan of knives ground like this as it makes thinning more of a defined process as you have a bevel to work off rather than just going at it on the sides of the knife, and then refinishing.
 
Cool i follow the same approach with my KU knives which seem to have a similar style of grind, and Carter SFGZ. Where the top section of Heiji's looks to have been ground i was wondering if there was any smoothing done of the transition. I'm a fan of knives ground like this as it makes thinning more of a defined process as you have a bevel to work off rather than just going at it on the sides of the knife, and then refinishing.

it's definitely more like a single bevel than not, in terms of the grind, and pretty much works as you describe. the angle between the bevel and the flats isn't quite as pronounced as on a yanagi, though, so there is more tendency for grind to move higher up than you want it to, especially with muddy stones. it's easy to clean that up with finger stones (if it's minor), or sandpaper on a sanding block, if it's more severe.
 
For what it's worth, my understanding is a tiny bit of convexity goes a long way. If you're thinning manually, you'll generally get enough of it on the secondary bevel whether you mean to put it there or not. The transition is fairly crisp. If you're okay with committing mortal sin, you can ease your transition if you want. The more you ease, the more it will behave like knives that are ground without a secondary bevel. You might as well buy something else (Gengetsu for example :) ). Like single bevel knives, after you get your secondary bevel right, it's generally wise to grind a tiny, thicker, primary bevel on it or the edge will tend to crumble. I put a single "micro" bevel on the right side at 15-20 deg.
 
What you are describing is a messed up Heiji, as the angle difference is part of what makes them so resistant to stickage: a nice big thin piece of potato can stick to the bevel, and it can stick to the flat, but it has a hard time sticking to both at the same time.

Nicely put, ER.

And, nice job on the knives. Great contrast between the primary and secondary bevel. They look so much like single bevel knives.
 
Nicely put, ER.

And, nice job on the knives. Great contrast between the primary and secondary bevel. They look so much like single bevel knives.

thanks! it's all in the King 800.
 
Nice post, ER. I agree w/ everything that's been said here. I don't have much to add to...

Jon has told me that w/ a crisp shinogi line, stiction is minimized, just as you described. The less crisp, the more food will stick.

You’ve done a nice job keeping the shinogi line crisp, especially at the tip. Jon has also pointed out to me that on a knife like a Heiji gyuto, the transition isn’t between blade face and secondary bevel isn’t quite as clearly defined as in a true single bevel knife, so these knives are tricky to sharpen properly and maintain that crisp shinogi.

Honestly, I was hoping you’d be able to post some vid footage of how you do the secondary bevel, especially at the tip. I botched mine up pretty badly, and since Jon fixed it I’ve been scared to go at it again. I’ve been practicing a little on some cheaper knives, but won’t know how much better I’ve gotten until I try the Heiji again.

Just for folks to know, I messed mine up by using too much pressure; not maintaining a consistent angle which blurred the shinogi; used to much pressure on my handle-holding hand (I switch hands always have the edge facing me) which caused an over-grind at the heel; lifted the handle too high while using too much pressure at the tip which caused the tip to crumble and break off; over-rotated at the shinogi line at the curve towards the tip which again caused a blurring of the shinogi and made a lot of scratches on the blade face.

I really didn’t realize how thin and delicate the edges and especially the tip of knives like these are. And also, the angles are VERY low and the transition between primary and secondary bevels is very slight. Jon measured the angles for me on a new knife, and the primary bevel is around 5d and the secondary is around 6d. So the included angle of the cutting edge is around 10d total, with only a 1d difference between primary and secondary. Lessons learned.
 
Are those semi stainless? I love my semi stainless santoku and I was thinking in getting a 240 gyuto also in semi stainless, but it seems that nakaya only makes them in Swedish steel.
 
This thread makes me want a Heiji. Looks great ER.
 

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