Question on AEB-L (Artifex) in sharpening and edge retention [vs Forschner]

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GConcept999

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Hi all, I have a few questions about sharpening AEB-L steel compared to Victorinox Forschner steel. I recently bought a Richmond Artifex 240mm. I am a prep cook for a high volume catering company and I do a lot of meat prep on plastic cutting boards.

I am having a bit of trouble sharpening and developing a burr on the Artifex. I got a combination sharpening stone from a family member, which may be a budget stone from Chinatown. It seems to develop a burr easily on a Forschner. Is this normal? From what I've researched, AEB-L seems to be an easy to sharpen stainless steel. Is AEB-L suppose to be harder to sharpen than the Forschner steel? And do I seem to have an extremely slow cutting stone.

The Artifex does get sharp after a long time of sharpening; however, after a full day of preping both the Artifex and Forschner gets dull, but the Forschner seem to feel a bit sharper. Would this be mainly due to the natural thinness of the stamped Forschner blade?

I do plan on purchasing quality stones, but have yet to jump the gun; I'm trying to figure this out first.

Thanks in advance!
 
AEB-L should develop a burr quite easily and the edge retention should be better regardless of preparation. It sounds like you are sharpening at a steeper angle than the stock edge and you are only abrading the shoulder above the edge, as opposed to the actual edge. Either keep on going until you establish new bevels or increase the blade to stone angle. Forschners lose their edge quite rapidly for a lot of reasons but mostly the steel is softer than most of the steel we talk about here.
 
Paint the edge with a permanent marker so you can see where you are hitting it on the stone.
 
pix of the edge would help probably on diagnosing what the problem could be.
 
Here a picture of the blade's geometry out of the box, as published in a very artifex-friendly forum:

http://postimg.org/image/ cma6nezdv/

The blade is so terribly thick behind the edge, that one will need a lot of force to actually cut with it. All that steel will cause a lot of friction. That's why a very thick edge may be less durable than a thinner one.
 
This link might actually work

http://postimg.org/image/cma6nezdv/


Artifex_Before1.jpg
 
When the website says it's a convex grind and the edge is V at 15 degrees, does that mean the primary cutting bevel is convex or the secondary bevel (above the cutting edge) is convex?

I have used the magic marker trick on the first sharpen to make sure I was sharpening at the 15 degree factory angle. I did the same yesterday to make sure I was still sharpening at the same angle, and it seems to be the case.

I'll try to take and upload some pictures tomorrow when I have better lighting.
 
Obviously this knife is thick as a brick and bricks don't sharpen up easily plus you've got AEB-L which might mean it's not so easy to sharpen if the heat treat isn't tweaked to perfection. FYI, AEB-L might not be a great steel for mass production.

Anyway, what I see you needing to do (barring returning the knife) is to get some really coarse stones, mark your edge so that you can see where you're hitting at, and then grind from the top of the factory bevel down to the cutting edge and burr formation.

Keep in mind that this knife will never perform as a thin knife will, if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here.
 
"if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."

That's hilarious, Dave, but the poor soul inquiring has no idea of the histories here.

My dear GCconcept, you've been duped. What you hoped to get--a high performing knife at a bargain price--does not exist. Pay the appropriate dues and get what's needed here. Check this forum or FF for "first knives for commercial/pro use" and see what the archieves hold for you. I think you'll find things like Carbonext coming up consistently. Get one. They won't let you down.
 
"if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."

That's hilarious, Dave, but the poor soul inquiring has no idea of the histories here.

My dear GCconcept, you've been duped. What you hoped to get--a high performing knife at a bargain price--does not exist. Pay the appropriate dues and get what's needed here. Check this forum or FF for "first knives for commercial/pro use" and see what the archieves hold for you. I think you'll find things like Carbonext coming up consistently. Get one. They won't let you down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I take it that the Artifex has a convex grind at the primary cutting edge from my brief web research. I also feel that I have an extremely slow cutting stone. With that combination, I think I am sharpening with a flat grind and not hitting the edge. I plan on purchasing the Bester/Rika combo, thin down the blade, and put a flat grind on the edge at 15 degrees (60/40 asymmetry) and go on from there.

Phip, I have done my research on high performing knife at bargain price, and it did come down to between the Artifex and Carbonext. However, on another forum, it was recommended to me to get the Artifex due to the better F&F and ready-to-cut profile compared to the Carbonext, which needed to be reprofiled and sharpened. I also learned that the Artifex carried the French Sabatier geometry profile, which I was very interested in trying. Finally, given that I was still a beginner sharpener (I have seen many sharpening videos on Youtube, examples: Mark Richmond, Dave Martell, Murray Carter, Jon Broida), Artifex made the most sense and was also at a lower price.

Anyone know know how AEB-L compares to Carbonext in terms of edge taking and edge retention? I was never able to find the answer to that.

"Keep in mind that this knife will never perform as a thin knife will, if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."
Dave, what do you mean by performance compared to a thin knife? Like laser thin or Masamoto KS (or typical Japanese knife) thin.
Also looking at specs, the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto seems to have the same spine thickness, but taller blade. Just by profile, is it just because the blade is thinner at the cutting edge that it would perform better?
 
AEB-L or any steel for that matter is only relevant if the person doing the ht/tempering knows what they are doing. Done by small makers one blade at the time it can be a great steel--as someone mentioned recently though it is probably not a very good steel for mass production. The other forum steered you wrong my friend--so sorry. Sabatier profile is copied by many makers and they each have their own interpretation of it. You'll find something you like but as said above, you get what you pay for...

Again, the same steel produced by different makers will act very different. Buying from a trusted maker is so much more important than buying any specific steel. Profile is a different story, you must find one that you like. Poor geometry and likely poor h/t are more of what you are dealing with here.

Cheers
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, I take it that the Artifex has a convex grind at the primary cutting edge from my brief web research.

The cutting edge of the Artifex is not convex, it is 'v'-shaped. The grind of the blade face is slightly convexed.

I also feel that I have an extremely slow cutting stone. With that combination, I think I am sharpening with a flat grind and not hitting the edge.

Paint the edge with a Magic Marker and use a loupe to see if you are hitting it when you sharpen.

I plan on purchasing the Bester/Rika combo, thin down the blade, and put a flat grind on the edge at 15 degrees (60/40 asymmetry) and go on from there.

Getting a better set of stones is a good idea. If you intend to thin the knife behind the edge, get the Beston 500 as well. You will spend a lot of time and effort trying to thin with a Bester 1200.

As far as edge retention is concerned, you may not be removing the burr entirely, and the resulting wire edge may be the cause of your edge retention issue. Try drawing the edge through a cork, hard felt or even a block of soft wood to remove the burr.

Rick
 
"Keep in mind that this knife will never perform as a thin knife will, if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."
Dave, what do you mean by performance compared to a thin knife? Like laser thin or Masamoto KS (or typical Japanese knife) thin.
Also looking at specs, the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto seems to have the same spine thickness, but taller blade. Just by profile, is it just because the blade is thinner at the cutting edge that it would perform better?


I mean almost any gytuo that is talked about here regularly (like the Carbonext that you were unfortunately advised against buying) will perform almost all tasks better than the Artifex will and that's because the Artifex is super thick.

Also, you mentioned about getting the Bester 1200x/Suehiro Rika 5k combo, I'm going to say that the Bester 1200x (while a stone I love) won't do squat for this knife, you're going to need some serious cutting power to get this worked out. I'll leave the specific stone recommendations to others, I just wanted to note that the 1200x isn't going to cut it here.
 
Phip, I have done my research on high performing knife at bargain price, and it did come down to between the Artifex and Carbonext. However, on another forum, it was recommended to me to get the Artifex due to the better F&F and ready-to-cut profile compared to the Carbonext, which needed to be reprofiled and sharpened.

Was this on the CKTG forum? If so that's basically lies and it makes me pretty angry. The Carbonext has a poor OOTB edge but it doesn't need reprofiled and the fit and finish is great for the price. In terms of edge retention between the Carbonext and AEB-L I think they will be fairly similar. AEB-L is common but not all of it is equal, some is great, some is poor. Comparing a Carbonext to the Artifex, the Carbonext would probably have better edge retention I'd say
 
The choil shot looks like a Sab bolster.

Asking the right questions is one thing, asking the right people is another. Having a forum tied to one specific vendor will see their products advised others more often than not. Asking yourself why someone gives the advice they do is sadly something that should not be forgotten when you are unfamiliar with the people advising you.

On a TV shopping network everyone that phones in has great things to say about the products....

To make you're knife perform well I would draw a line about 15mm up from the edge all the way down each side and then abrade the shoulder of the bevel until you have a big wide bevel from that line down to the edge. I'd then add a small microbevel and use it for a bit. If it still feels too thick, draw a line 5mm above the old one and abrade up to there and try again.

This will take a coarse stone, time and skill. A quicker result can be had with a belt grinder and an experienced operator.

Good luck. If it were me I'd return it and try something else. Cktg does stock some decent knives so if you can exchange it l is not lost
 
Was this on the CKTG forum? If so that's basically lies and it makes me pretty angry. The Carbonext has a poor OOTB edge but it doesn't need reprofiled and the fit and finish is great for the price. In terms of edge retention between the Carbonext and AEB-L I think they will be fairly similar. AEB-L is common but not all of it is equal, some is great, some is poor. Comparing a Carbonext to the Artifex, the Carbonext would probably have better edge retention I'd say

That's laughable that the CarboNext needs to be reprofiled. It could use a sharpening, but reprofiling?

I bought a regular (not extra sharp) CarboNext a few months ago to compare it side to side with the Suisin Western Inox. I didn't really care for the knife, but its good for what it is at the price, and certainly doesn't need to be reprofiled. I liked the profile just fine. And, although it wasn't very sharp, the OOTB edge was fine to be used right away. I really want to now try out an unmodified Artifex now and compare it to my CarboNext.

GG - Where are you in NorCal? Bay Area?
 
I have tried taking pictures, but either the lighting or camera is not good enough to see the edge

@Pensacola Tiger - I will get a loupe to see more closely at what I'm sharpening.

I was actually planning on the Beston/Bester/Suehiro Rika combination set found on certain websites. Not sure if I want to invest in a diamond plate at the moment because of the price, and am unsure of which brand.

Also, I've been deburring on wine cork, with about 3 light strokes.

@stevenStefano & @mhlee- The mentioned comment was not on CKTG forum. I may have been mistaken on the definition of reprofiling/profiling, or is there different interpretations on the word?

Based on what I'm constantly reading is that AEB-L does seem to depend on the heat-treatment of the maker, and is probably better and more consistent with a craftsman that makes the AEB-L blade in small volumes.
 
Profile means the shape of the knife and includes the shape of the edge. Geometry refers to the grind of the knife - from the edge to spine or vice versa. "Reprofiling" usually means changing the curvature of the edge.

You may also want to try stropping on newspaper to see if that helps get rid of the burr.
 
What do you recommend, Franz?

send it back, get another knife. the return policy should help with that.

or if they won't take it back

then i'd rather keep tweaking that knife til i get it right. so i'd thin it down. if i'm too scared to thin it down like a new user would be (not that i've proven my sharpening skills or thinning skills here), i'd send it out to someone more knowledgeable and more skilled than myself so it gets to work right. at least to someone who's willing to work on it.

beyond that, i dunno.
 
How bout thinning the knife at 10 to 12 degrees starting with a coarse stone and follow Rick's (
Pensacola Tiger) suggestions. Sounds like a plan to me.
 
I have a 210mm Artifex that I use as a beater/prep knife. I do like the profile and how it handles but the primary grind is pretty bad. The AEB-L steel is also rather hard at least on my knife. In order to get this knife to perform I had to go to a course DMT stone and thinned between the secondary and primary bevels. It cuts much better but it is a work in progress since I'm still working on the thinning to see how far it needs to go. The secondary bevel is currently sitting at ~15 degrees per side but it has taken a lot of thinning work to get it to perform even at 15 degrees. My 240mm Gesshin Ginga (White #2) kills it in cutting ability but I'm determined to make the Artifex perform so I can see how the AEB-L holds an edge.
 
Thanks for the replies. I got a Bester 1k and Suehiro Rika 5k. It is able to sharpen a bevel much better, and I am able to feel the burrs forming much easier now.

I am still looking to get a coarse stone to thin the blade. I hope to find something on the B/S/T section. Or I may get a Naniwa Omura #150. Are there recommendations against using this stone for thinning? I understand that it dishes quickly, but I like the idea that it cuts fast and gives a good polish for it to jump right into a medium stone. If I were to use it, I would try to make use of the ends of the stone, and flatten on drywall screen periodically through the process.
 
When a lot of steel is to be removed as in your case, you may consider the use of coarse sandpaper (P120) to start with.
 
Thanks for the replies. I got a Bester 1k and Suehiro Rika 5k. It is able to sharpen a bevel much better, and I am able to feel the burrs forming much easier now.

I am still looking to get a coarse stone to thin the blade. I hope to find something on the B/S/T section. Or I may get a Naniwa Omura #150. Are there recommendations against using this stone for thinning? I understand that it dishes quickly, but I like the idea that it cuts fast and gives a good polish for it to jump right into a medium stone. If I were to use it, I would try to make use of the ends of the stone, and flatten on drywall screen periodically through the process.


All is not lost.... you have an opportunity to bring life to this knife..

AS mentioned by TB London ( way aboveposys ) you may take that route. At times, I use course sand paper.. cheap and affordable enough.. IT takes time but you will get it there.. Whether it is stone or sand paper, they both will abrade..

Personally, I wld say from the edge.. 1/2 to 3/4 inch thinning all the way. It can be further refined with smoother sand paper. I wld commence with say a 220Grit sand paper adn will possibly go down lower ( possible 150grit) it is too slow for me and at least refine the scratches with at least 600 grit adn proceed to 1000 grit shld you desire to beautify and polish the knife.

### place it real flat and use a backing on the sandpaper to prevent cutting yr fingers. A wooden block, cork or piece of rubber will be fine. Cut the sandpaper to teh desired width . But I rather do it bare with the thumb so that I can feel the metal.

as for sharpening.. as above. Get 2 angles / planes to meet and if it is thin enough.. ( do what it takes to achieve this adn it will be sharp) it will cut beautifully..I wld not be too concerned abt the 15 degrees that you mentioned a few times. You may have to go lower (if it is that thick) and thus have a wider bevel on the edge.

All is not lost and you wld most probably learn to thin behind the edge..

Persevere and you will get there pretty soon.

have fun and watch the fingers. Safety first....

rgds
d
 
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