Laser VS Workhorse

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jaybett

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Is there any task that a workhorse gyuto is able to perform, that would be difficult or impossible for a laser?

Jay
 
Biggest thing I notice is that a thinner knife wedges a lot more in things like potatoes.
On the flip side if I'm cutting something super hard like kabocha or butternut my thinner knives go through with much less resistance.
 
Thinner knives can not have as much of a convexed or "s" ground face since there isn't as much material to work with. This can create more stiction to the blade face especially on taller blades. Certain cuts "walking the board" make me cringe while using a laser as well.
 
Biggest thing I notice is that a thinner knife wedges a lot more in things like potatoes.
On the flip side if I'm cutting something super hard like kabocha or butternut my thinner knives go through with much less resistance.

thinner knives, by definition, can't "wedge" as much as thicker knives, and your second sentence contradicts your first. what you are describing is sticktion, which is typically greater for the reasons ThEoRy gave.
 
thinner knives, by definition, can't "wedge" as much as thicker knives, and your second sentence contradicts your first. what you are describing is sticktion, which is typically greater for the reasons ThEoRy gave.

That is exactly what I was attempting to describe, thanks.
 
No prob. I love the Heiji geometry for things like potatoes, but I usually switch over to my Singatirin honyaki for rutabagas and hard squash, as you just can't get around the physics. well, that's not really true, i just use the Heijis and push harder, because I usually use one knife for an entire meal prep, but you know what I mean. :)
 
Would it be fair to say that a laser can perform the same tasks as a work horse? That is not to say there are differences in how the knives do their tasks. Some caution would have to be used, with the laser.

Often times, when a search is being made for a knife, desirable qualities listed are: lightness and thinness, in other words a laser. After experiencing a laser, a number of users have posted their preference for a heavier knife. Why? What advantage is the added weight?

Jay
 
I've owned a bunch of very thin knives. The only very thin knife I still own is a Konosuke White #2 300mm suji. It's very thin, and it's awesome for slicing roasts, and when I was in Florida in May, I found out that it's awesome for trimming scallops (made a ripert dish that blew my in-laws heads off). For general tasks, I'd rather have a heavier knife that has less stiction than a lighter, thinner knife. That's why I've bought three Heijis.
 
For anything that involves repetitive chopping motions, liking mincing or guillotine cuts I like a more robust knife. It feels like a thicker blade will absorb the force more. Thinner lasers for just about everything else. But that's just me. I'm sure plenty will disagree.
 
Sometimes a heavier knife is advantageous. I think cutting spring onions is one. You can have a very sharp knife but a little weight really helps cut cleanly. For heavier knives you can also often cut with a vertical up and down motion with no need to move forward and back as well because the weight of the knife takes away the need. They both have their advantages and disadvantages
 
It's also really difficult to decide what a laser is based on weight because the handle could account for a lot of the overall weight of the knife. Even spine thickness isn't necessarily a determining factor, because you have to consider how quickly the blade tapers from spine to heel. I've used knives before with 2.4-2.6mm spines that felt thicker, not laser like.
 
For anything that involves repetitive chopping motions, liking mincing or guillotine cuts I like a more robust knife. It feels like a thicker blade will absorb the force more. Thinner lasers for just about everything else. But that's just me. I'm sure plenty will disagree.

I agree for many jobs in Gardemanger from slicing tomato's,lemon wedges,peeling fruits,to cutting Sushi I prefer a Lazor.Even slicing meats wt. out bone.
 
I'm not a pro, but I went from a workhorse (Mario knife) to a laser (White #2 Gesshin Ginga). I love the ease of cutting, lightness, balance of the Ginga. I also prefer the feedback of monosteel carbon steel vs. stainless and the handle. I don't baby it at all and I don't feel that I have to. (I also use a Japanese synthetic board that I feel takes really good care of edges.)

I also felt less fatigue using this knife than other heavier knives (which as I use more knives, I think is result of better balance, not necessarily weight). But, that's just me.

The one thing I wish it did have was better food release. But, it's a laser - you're likely not going to get great food release from a laser.
 
So at what point does a "Laser" become a "Workhorse"? Is there something in between? Or does it go from Laser to Workhorse?

Sorry for the questions, as you can see by my posts, kinda new here
 
I prefer the feel of my Devin ITK, Shig and Yoshikane compared to my Konosuke gyuto (laser). I can't quite explain it but I feel as if the knife is more solid and I have more confidence in using it. Granted I still enjoy the hell out of my Konosuke every time I use it. For me I guess it comes down to aesthetics.

When I was much younger my Dad gave me his old set of Ping Zing 2 golf clubs. This was a serious set of irons for someone at the age of 12 and I used them for about 3 years before I purchased my first set of irons, Titleist DCI 981's. I immediately preferred the new irons based on the look of the club head, it seemed more natural to me and that gave me more confidence when standing over the ball. Golf is 80% mental for me, if I am not confident looking down at the club face and ball then chances are I will not swing true.

Weird I know, but for me, looks have a big part of how something can perform for me. Don't get me wrong, the grind has to right otherwise a workhorse is just a big slab of steel.
 
For me, the softer the object being cut, the more advantageous it is to use a thicker knife with more convexity. My Zakuri is almost like a double beveled yanagiba. Slices of meat or whatever just fall away from it. The other time a thicker knife is nice is for highly repetitive tasks where some downward force needs to be applied for whatever reason. It's more comfortable to apply that force on a nice wide (and appropriately eased) spine. What I think is odd is when people think their lasers are more delicate than their "workhorses" even though the reality of it is a Gengetsu is thinner near the edge than a Konosuke, etc. If there is a part of your blade that is going to get munched, it's the area right by the edge, unless you're using it like a crowbar.
 
...or you could drill out some holes along the length of the blade. :)
 
So at what point does a "Laser" become a "Workhorse"? Is there something in between? Or does it go from Laser to Workhorse?

Sorry for the questions, as you can see by my posts, kinda new here
i guess when a knife is so thin that you barely ever get wedging but also there isnt much convexing in the blade either due to its thinness thus causing the stiction instead. thats pretty much what a laser is. i dunno, i consider laser to be almost a slang term. but i think most here would agree those are the characteristics of a laser. as far as an example of a good in between knife is concerned, the misono swed is the best example of an in between IMO in my limited experience. Its thin but no laser.
 
Laser: 2 mm or less spine thickness over the heel for a 240 mm gyuto.
 
Laser: 2 mm or less spine thickness over the heel for a 240 mm gyuto.

well, assuming a good reduction towards the edge. 2mm at the spine and 1mm at the edge wouldn't be so great. ;)
 
well, assuming a good reduction towards the edge. 2mm at the spine and 1mm at the edge wouldn't be so great. ;)
I disagree. Thin knives are still lasers even if they suck. Historically, the term is used to describe knives made from steel sheets: Tadatsuna, Yusuke and Suisin Inox Honyaki western style knives. Now, we have Konosuke, Gesshin, etc. as well. The term has also been applied to some other thin knives from cheap to very expensive forged blades that were/are in actuality, terrible and not worth using, IMO.
 
not a fan of lasers. prepped 3 x 400 pans worth of root veggies tonight with a tanaka fattie gyuto and no wedging. i'd have been pretty miserable had i had to use a laser for that task.
 
When it comes to chopping large amount of veggies, I wonder if people prefer longer or thicker knives, because the extra weight helps with the cut? I use the heaviest knife I own, when chopping large amounts of veggies.

Jay
 
+1

It's funny how everything comes to balance over time and tried-and-true stuff just keeps coming back.

To me lasers were never an area of interest. I have a Japanese knife that is 1.5mm at the spine, flat ground, then 90/10 beveled. It flexes at the handle, and while thin enough to get through most things with ease, on dense stuff it gets stuck. I attribute it less to wedging and more to sticking, but most annoying trait of lasers that many flex at the spine while you cutting through a squash or similarly dense vegetable. For that reason alone, I would never make a knife that is less than 2.5mm thick at the handle.

There are geometries one can explore to thin the edge and area above the edge, while leaving spine at full thickness. For me this is the approach if I were to look for a knife that offers a precise cutting ability. A good example of such a knife is a thin Shigefusa.

A
 
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