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Marko Tsourkan

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After some spirited debate on qualities of knives by American and Japanese makers, I have entered in a challenge with a fellow forum member. We are still working out details of how it will run, but in brief, I will provide one of my knives (with my standard HT, geometry, profile, handle ergonomics, etc) to be tested against a Japanese knife of his choice. It is likely to be 240mm gyuto.

We want this to be a blind test, that is a tester should have no knowledge of either makers, and the testing to concentrate on five areas: sharpness, food separation, edge holding, edge stability (resistance to chipping) and feel. Feel is something subjective to every person, but typically it covers balance, weight, and how a knife actually feels in one's hand.

I hope that the contenders will be put for a shift (or longer) of cutting without touching up or sharpening in between and cutting would cover a variety of things, including dense rood vegetables.

Win or lose, there is something to be learned here and I am a game for it.

I will keep you guys posted and I will also start a blog on this subject once it is in motion.

Thanks,

Marko

PS: I hope I don't break forum rules posting it here. I don't think I do, but if I am mistaken, mods please let me know.
 
Interesting. Reminds me a bit of the sharpening olympics way back when.

k.

Why? I find it a bit puzzling why some of you think that comparing two knives is like comparing apples and oranges. We are not comparing deba and gyuto here - same type, same lengh, and I presume that knife it is to test against is made to be used in pro environment.

There are fixed criteria they will be tested on, but overall, one test them for their efficiency to do the work, same as, say two sprinters square off running 100 meters. Why can you have contests in other spheres of life (sports, cooking, technology, etc) but not here? Both knives are made to do same work - cutting a variety of things. I am genuinely perplexed.

Note that I have no idea what the testers' preferences are, I have some idea what knife it will be tested against, but I am not going to make any adjustments to my process. So a blind test is the way to go and multiple testers will hopefully eliminate some bias. It's highly unscientific exercise, or course, but there should be something to learn from it.

It's quite different from sharpening Olympics, as the knifet hat won the sharpness contest, would not have lasted long on the board.

M
 
I am looking forward to this. I suspect your blade will hold up well against anything.
 
I have only control over my work, so it's not a clear cut scenario and it could go either way as many factors can influence the outcome. Hopefully having defined criteria helps, but you never know.

That's basically what I prepare myself for. Win or lose, its a valuable exercise for me.

M
 
Win or lose, there is something to be learned here and I am a game for it.

You will learn what one person likes in a knife and that's it. You can have 2 totally different knives but one isn't necessarily better than the other. It is not comparing apples to apples, knives are subjective. Which is better. A 100m sprinter or a 400m sprinter? I appreciate you going through with this and all but it seems kinda futile, you know what you do and what you like and so will the testers
 
I'd like to be in that pass around. I have several peeople that I work with that are good cooks but don't know stink about knives. I love you attitude too Marko. Hopefully someday I'll be able to convince you to make me a few handles
 
You will learn what one person likes in a knife and that's it. You can have 2 totally different knives but one isn't necessarily better than the other. It is not comparing apples to apples, knives are subjective. Which is better. A 100m sprinter or a 400m sprinter? I appreciate you going through with this and all but it seems kinda futile, you know what you do and what you like and so will the testers

No, you are comparing the knife's ability to handle any work you throw at it. One that's more efficient, wins. Efficiency is evaluated by five criteria outlined in the first post. This exercise is aimed at pro users, not collectors. That's really all it is. Soft of like "pretend you are stranded on an inland and you have only one knife that you will have to make work for everything".

I stated in the first post that people to participate will have no knowledge of the makers or their knives, and KKF. Testing is probably going to be done in Norway.

I put forward no requirements what knife the other party to provide.

Hope this clarifies things.

M
 
My two cents:

I think it's very important that this be a "blind" test. The user(s) cannot know which knife is which: no prior knowledge, no markings. Also, I think it is very important that what is to be rated be extremely specific and well understood as to its meaning and application. Finally, the rating system needs to be well defined. Is it this is better than that or is there a point system for each category?
 
I am OK with sending a knife without my name on it. After the testing, that knife is likely to become a pass-around knife anyway.
 
You will learn what one person likes in a knife and that's it. You can have 2 totally different knives but one isn't necessarily better than the other. It is not comparing apples to apples, knives are subjective. Which is better. A 100m sprinter or a 400m sprinter? I appreciate you going through with this and all but it seems kinda futile, you know what you do and what you like and so will the testers

This.
 
I am still not convinced.

We are not asking a weight lifter run against a sprinter, or a marathon runner run against sprinter. The knives are comparable and designed to do a similar work, presumably efficiently. So, what is the problem to put them to a contest?

The emphasis is not on personal preferences of a tester, but on a knife as a tool to perform all work that one normally does with a knife during a work shift.

You guys must have had moments when you tried a new knife that have had an effect on your preferences? No? Why then some knives come and go out of fashion? I don't believe that people are so rigid in their preferences that they can't evaluate a tool.

M
 
I think a bit of standardization of the testing might yield more generalizable results. Maybe define a specific series of tasks for the 5 metrics, in addition to "a day in the life" type of testing?
 
You need more than one tester. Otherwise you have a data set of one.

-AJ
 
I am still not convinced.

We are not asking a weight lifter run against a sprinter, or a marathon runner run against sprinter. The knives are comparable and designed to do a similar work, presumably efficiently. So, what is the problem to put them to a contest?

The emphasis is not on personal preferences of a tester, but on a knife as a tool to perform all work that one normally does with a knife during a work shift.

So following your logic, if we carried out a test, we should be able to say (for pros at least) with confidence that one knife is the best there is?
 
I suggested 3, but have no problem to include more as long as the knife is maintained after each of the testers. I would also like that the both knives are sharpened by a third party, so that comparable edge could be put on both (preferably without a microbevel).

Also, I would like the knife to be used for 1+ shifts straight, to evaluate edge retention.

I am super flexible, as I hope you guys see.

M
 
So following your logic, if we carried out a test, we should be able to say (for pros at least) with confidence that one knife is the best there is?

I don't think we are looking for the best there is. it was my understanding that a claim was made that the Japanese were superior in their knife construction do to traditional methodology and generational experience as opposed to the Americans with their limited experience and modern techniques. It was also inferred that there was no way an American knife could perform as well or surpass a Japanese knife made by a master craftsman. Marko excepted the challenge to dispel that myth not to see if the American knife would be the best knife ever.
 
So following your logic, if we carried out a test, we should be able to say (for pros at least) with confidence that one knife is the best there is?

No, as the sample is pretty small, but one could say that one knife might have performed work more efficiently than the other (edge lasted longer, separated a range of foods better, didn't microchip, etc).

I repeat that I can only control what I put in making this knife, I can't control testers' preferences, biases, etc. So it's not a straight shot and I am prepared to lose the contest.

M

PS: I do this kind of real-life contests at my Crossfit gym almost every day. We all get assigned same work and all do it to our best ability. Whoever get the best time (by following required criteria, like prescribed weight) wins. Best time = efficiency, skill, level of fitness, etc. Translated it into a knife terms = steel, heat treatment, geometry, profile, etc. Crazy perhaps, but to me makes perfect sense.
 
Because the test is conducted by man, there will be a level of subjectivity. But if a test params and judgement criteria are agreed upon, then it should be good. It's like a auto magazine shoot-out comparison tests. Even with the same cars tested, it's not that Automobile, Road & Track, Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, etc. will select the same winner. However, as we know how they are tested and how they are judged, we can consume the feedback intelligently.
 
I repeat that I can only control what I put in making this knife, I can't control testers' preferences, biases, etc. So it's not a straight shot and I am prepared to lose the contest.

So what's the point of doing it then? You say

No, you are comparing the knife's ability to handle any work you throw at it. One that's more efficient, wins. Efficiency is evaluated by five criteria outlined in the first post.

We are not asking a weight lifter run against a sprinter, or a marathon runner run against sprinter. The knives are comparable and designed to do a similar work, presumably efficiently. So, what is the problem to put them to a contest?

The emphasis is not on personal preferences of a tester, but on a knife as a tool to perform all work that one normally does with a knife during a work shift.

And now you're saying you might lose because of the testers' personal preferences? So you're agreeing with me?
 
So what's the point of doing it then? You say



And now you're saying you might lose because of the testers' personal preferences? So you're agreeing with me?

Competition makes you learn and adopt. Without competition you really don't know where you stand.

I hope that I will get enough explanation and feedback by a party that is unaffected by the forum, but who uses knives for living to make it worthwhile.

If I knew that I would win, I would not have bothered competing. Plus I don't believe people's preferences are stone-rigid.

M
 
Um I kinda have a problem with the two knives not having any markings and such. The Kato is already made. It is known for shape style, and i'm sure a kanji. The only way this could be taken care of would be for Marko to make the exact knife. I don't think that is achievable, and if it would be I wouldn't think Marko would do it.

So how does one go about undoing what has already done? Do you send both knives in 1 package wrapped in tape from handle to the kanji?

Just some thoughts there.
 
Competition makes you learn and adopt. Without competition you really don't know where you stand.

I hope that I will get enough explanation and feedback by a party that is unaffected by the forum, but who uses knives for living to make it worthwhile.

If I knew that I will win, I would not have bothered competing.

M

To me that's like asking people who own Ford Kas and Nissan Micras to test a Ferrari versus a Porsche.
 
You seem to use your pass arounds as a learning tool.This test follows your logic. I expect all your customers will benefit from the what you learn. I commend you for continuing to challenge yourself this way and look forward to the end result.
 
I love your attitude Marko...it reminds me of a sign I saw a few years ago:

experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
 
Why? I find it a bit puzzling why some of you think that comparing two knives is like comparing apples and oranges. We are not comparing deba and gyuto here - same type, same lengh, and I presume that knife it is to test against is made to be used in pro environment.

There are fixed criteria they will be tested on, but overall, one test them for their efficiency to do the work, same as, say two sprinters square off running 100 meters. Why can you have contests in other spheres of life (sports, cooking, technology, etc) but not here? Both knives are made to do same work - cutting a variety of things. I am genuinely perplexed.

Note that I have no idea what the testers' preferences are, I have some idea what knife it will be tested against, but I am not going to make any adjustments to my process. So a blind test is the way to go and multiple testers will hopefully eliminate some bias. It's highly unscientific exercise, or course, but there should be something to learn from it.

It's quite different from sharpening Olympics, as the knifet hat won the sharpness contest, would not have lasted long on the board.

M

Whoa! Please don't over think this Marko based upon my comment. I only meant the 'sharpening olympics' comparison in the loosest of senses: it was an interesting knife-related comparison/contest/competition...or whatever you want to call it. It just crossed my mind, that's all. And I am well aware of the "wire-edged" winner of that past contest and the scandalous results and I don't see this as the same.

I'd also like to apologize for inadvertently starting this thread down the road of hackneyed sports metaphors. My bad.

So with that said, as I don't have mod privileges, I revise my prior statement.

"Interesting. This in no way reminds me a bit of the sharpening olympics way back when." ;)

k.
 
Um I kinda have a problem with the two knives not having any markings and such. The Kato is already made. It is known for shape style, and i'm sure a kanji. The only way this could be taken care of would be for Marko to make the exact knife. I don't think that is achievable, and if it would be I wouldn't think Marko would do it.

So how does one go about undoing what has already done? Do you send both knives in 1 package wrapped in tape from handle to the kanji?

Just some thoughts there.

I am familiar with Kato geometry and I suppose I could make a replica if I wanted, but it's not a geometry I use or intend to, thought I got some ideas after trying out that knife.

I am not overly concerned about marking. We can ask people not to look up the maker or read reviews. I am sure it's not too much to ask.

Karring, no worries, man. I do remember that contest and the outcome of it (it was a long time ago, wasn't it), so I thought that addressing it early on would take some skepticism away, not necessarily from your side, but in general.

M
 
I suggest any knife supplied by the competitors must be "factory" ground. No aftermarket work done whatsoever. No thinning behind the edge or any other geometry alteration.
 

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