Heavy Chef's Knife - A New Project

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Marko Tsourkan

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Some years ago I had a Wusthoff heavy chef's. It was a pretty cool knife, though because of its weight and geometry, it didn't see much use. Recently I tried a Japanese heavy chefs and it got me interested.

I am thinking of using 4.5 - 5.5mm stock in 52100 or powder stainless steel. I will give profile a little more curve toward the tip than I use on my thinner knives, but overall, it will be similar and will have a pointy tip.

Weight target for 270mm will be 250g without a handle, about 325g with the handle. Heavier, slightly oversize D handle should help with a balance, though I expect the balance point to be forward, 1.5" or so.

Fit and finish the same as on my other knives. Standard heat treatment - best combination of sharpness, wear resistance and edge stability.

Geometry will be mostly convex.

This would be a specialty knife, like other specialty knives: scimitar, single bevel, etc that I would like to become proficient at.

Heavy knives that perform is a new territory for me so I could use as much input from the users as they are willing to give. I would like to hear from the users on what are the strong/weak points of such a knife, and suggestions how a knife like that can be improved.

Please post in this thread, PM, or if you wish, contact me directly Here:

Thank you.
 
Want to add that the steel for this type of knife should offer a good amount of wear resistance, and a good response to stropping and touching up on a high grit stones or diamond plates. You would want to keep the original geometry for a long time, if you eat up the edge up too fast, the knife will need to be reground (I doubt it can be thinned by hand) to maintain performance.

52100 for carbon and PM stainless have a good wear resistance, small carbide size for edge stability and respond very well to stropping and touching up on DMT plates.
 
The info received and my own take on this project should be enough to make a 1.0 prototype and after a passaoround, I would incorporate the feedback into 2.0 version.
 
I am all about the heavy style knives. I was just having a conversation with a fellow member about using such a style of knife for breaking down whole, bone in chicken. Sounds like it could be used for general kitchen duties, as well. Hope this helps.

I would also be interested if it makes it to the pass around stage.
 
Some years ago I had a Wusthoff heavy chef's. It was a pretty cool knife, though because of its weight and geometry, it didn't see much use. Recently I tried a Japanese heavy chefs and it got me interested.

I am thinking of using 4.5 - 5.5mm stock in 52100 or powder stainless steel. I will give profile a little more curve toward the tip than I use on my thinner knives, but overall, it will be similar and will have a pointy tip.

Weight target for 270mm will be 250g without a handle, about 325g with the handle. Heavier, slightly oversize D handle should help with a balance, though I expect the balance point to be forward, 1.5" or so.

Fit and finish the same as on my other knives. Standard heat treatment - best combination of sharpness, wear resistance and edge stability.

Geometry will be mostly convex.

This would be a specialty knife, like other specialty knives: scimitar, single bevel, etc that I would like to become proficient at.

Heavy knives that perform is a new territory for me so I could use as much input from the users as they are willing to give. I would like to hear from the users on what are the strong/weak points of such a knife, and suggestions how a knife like that can be improved.

Please post in this thread, PM, or if you wish, contact me directly Here:

Thank you.
I'd love to get a shot at it.
 
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I am all about the heavy style knives. I was just having a conversation with a fellow member about using such a style of knife for breaking down whole, bone in chicken. Sounds like it could be used for general kitchen duties, as well. Hope this helps.

I would also be interested if it makes it to the pass around stage.

Interesting idea and if I am not mistaken, my Wuesthoff was ground like that - first half was ground thinner for general cutting, and the heel was thicker sharpened at an obtuse angle for splitting.

I admit that this was not in my plants, but I would consider making a variation of heavy chefs/splitter to a regular heavy chefs.
 
I would be interested for sure I have owned a Mizuno gyuto and currently own a gyuto and a suji from Heiji. I prefer a heavier knife and am used to those with large wide and conveyed bevels. Also I'm especially used to using a knife like this in a pro environment. If you want a tester I'm in. I'm a little reticent though at the idea of you making a slightly heavier (I.e., thicker knife) that is difficult to thin on stones. A very large part of owning a heavier gyuto is performing the requisite thinning to maintain the cutting geometry. That part is the difficult trade off. But, as usual, I'm probably missing something
 
Every geometry has its pros and cons. Cons of a thick convex is that sooner or later the edge will be eaten up and you will move up to a thicker area on the blade. One way to counteract that is to choose a steel with a good wear resistance and to maintain the knife on a felt strop with a diamond spray in-between sharpening sessions and a periodic touch ups on a 8K DMT plate. This can prolong time between sharpening up to 2-4 months (it would depend what you cut, of course. If a lot of rosemary, the time will be shorter).

Nonetheless, at some point in the future, the knife will need to be reground to get it back to original performance. Thin convex knives can be thinned by hand more effectively than thick ones. The later are best thinned on a grinder.

That's one of the reasons the reason why I haven't chosen a pure convex for my current grind.

This heavy chefs knife is more of an exercise than a production plan. For one, my knives are about 150g in weight, while this one is going to be about 250g, so I would have to discover something really amazing to consider changing geometry (I don't expect that to happen).

Making heavier knives with my current geometry is possible and I am already doing it. Food release gets affected by making geometry thicker, but not not by much. I hope this project will help me learn about thicker and heavier knives, so I could take knowledge and apply with my current knives.
 
I think it would be a good experiment Marko, a heavier knife can be good as i found with Shigefusa. As long as geometry is good i dont see and issue with it. Heavy knives like european knives i always keep around at work for opening lobsters, using the spine to smash celery etc. I think if i had a heavier gyuto i may attempt these with that just depends. It would be nice to have a gyuto that could take a little extra abuse but still perform.
 
Yes it would be. As I said before, I naturally gravitate away from pure convex, so I will use convex as a reference point, and try tweaking the grind at the heel and other areas where it could improve performance in my opinion.

I am actually thinking to give this knife profile of my typical chefs's - flatter with a pointy tip. I think if balance point is not too far forward, tip can be used efficiently.

M
 
Personally, I find this style of knife among the most interesting. Eventhough I understand how it works, it still does feel magical when a thick, heavy knife seems to glide through hard, dense product like it was warm butter.

Will you grind this fully symmetrical? One of the things that I think is interesting about the kato grind is how asymmetrical it is -almost like a convex single bevel.
 
A heavy chef's and not a western deba? Or maybe the distinction is in my head only.

Whilst exploring for a Western Deba and a heavier chefs knife separately,( thicker and clocks in abt 240 grams max weight fo which is my preference for a chefs knife), the Tojiro concept for their deba seems to fit your statement exactly. Size is abt the same as their regular gyuto . thicker spine with adn comes with a convex grind. Thats what attracts me. Other makers makes their western deba with higher blade height.

Wuesthof.. I remember that they do make a wide chefs knife.. Higher blade height adn thicker spine. Its a shame that they didnt grind it convexly. The other Wuesthof as mentioned by Marko .....with splitter capability is a different knife altogether.

have fun..
D
 
Personally, I find this style of knife among the most interesting. Eventhough I understand how it works, it still does feel magical when a thick, heavy knife seems to glide through hard, dense product like it was warm butter.

Will you grind this fully symmetrical? One of the things that I think is interesting about the kato grind is how asymmetrical it is -almost like a convex single bevel.

I think the magic is in convex and distal taper. Most weight on a heavy chefs is at the heel, while the rest is ground just a notch thicker than a regular gyuto (because of a very prominent distal taper). A Wuesthoff splitter was like that too, over a half of the blade was used for general cutting and there geometry was thinner, and the heel was for splitting. That knife wasn't a match to a J. knife as a cutter, but same concept was applied there.

I am going to grind symmetrical and test cut as I grind. I have another idea, but I might try that on a separate knife - I don't have to waste the only blank if it doesn't work.

As for asymmetrical grind, I sometimes think it's by accident rather than design. I have seen knives from the same makers where sometimes the bevel felt a little more prominent on one or another side. I find that it would be easier for me to grind knives for left-hand use than right-hand, even though most of knives I make are for right hand use. Somehow my muscle memory works better for one than another, and I need to compensate.

M
 
And now the $1000 question...

240mm or 270mm?

Ideally I would like to hear from folks who tried both of them and found preference of one over the other.

M
 
Here is a tentative plan of action.

I will make two heavy chef's with different geometries. Length either 240 or 270.

WIP pics will be available on my Blog, while here I will post just the summary pics.

At the completion, video comparison of both will be made.

After that, both will be send for testing to a pro kitchen.

I look forward to the test, as my scimitar project has been on hold because I can't decide on geometry for it. The couple Dexters that I have are too thin for my liking, so hopefully I will learn enough about convex this time to apply it in my other knives, like the scimitar.

Other specialty knives - single bevel boning knives and slicers I have been working on. Grinding those is not without issues - steel warps if the grind is not symmetrical, but I got some good ideas how keep them straight, so when I have more time, I will do 2.0 slicer. Boning knives are production-ready.

M
 
i find the 240 most versatile, and more common, sometimes a 270 can feel limited because of the long length whereas 240 i can usually use anywhere on anything...
 
270 is better IMO gives more room to accommodate the grind.

I also never feel like the poster above if I go shorter then 270 then Id rather use a petty or small suji but different strokes for different folks. Big knives in small spaces never bothered me though.

This knife you are designing seems similar to the a-type and in the past the 270 was just a better knife then the 240 because you gain height over the heel and a better transition to a thin tip.
 
I will start with 270mm and see what knife it will turn out. Some things can be thought of before hand, some thing become clearer during the grinding process, and some after the knife is finished (usually too late to make changes, but version 2.0 will incorporate that afterthought)

I typically have stuff to cut near by (onions, carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes), so I grind, put an edge, cut, analyze, and so forth. This is a new territory and I will try to get a working prototype from the first shot, so I will have to rely on this approach extensively.

Compare to the thickness of heavy chef's, my typical knives (by no mean lasers) are very thin. :D

M
 
I have transitioned from thin knives to all thick ones. My latest (watanabe pro) is close resemblance to this concept. Mighty in every sense of the word. tall throughout most of the blade length so it just looks massive, I would put it akin to a gradually shrinking short cleaver with a gyuto tip. I felt like it might have actually been too tall, but in actual usage you adjust to its size and just blow right through food without ever having to think about the knife, just the task at hand. it appears the grind is gradual from spine to half way then tapers to a zero edge with an unpronounced smooth shoulder. Asymmetrical but mildly so. Distal taper is also gradual with no area aggressively ground. Tip gets skinny only the last bit because the gradual taper allows the pointy end to be useful without sacrificing its robustness by a strongly tapered thin tip.
If I were to change this particular knife I would make it slightly less wide (55mm) slightly less length (260mm) and lower the tip to make it an all around 'medium-large' and not a straight up large.

This is a very interesting project as not too many options for a genuine workhorse but highly tuned performance. It seems 'sports coups' are all the craze, I don't care for them and my skinny ones never came out of the knife roll very much if at all once I moved to a 'sports sedan'

what I value is a tough steel that lasts, but in the same token is easy to sharpen and maintain a usable edge. That's asking for two polarizing properties but a balance should be able to be struck somewhere. also optimal hardness pushed to the edge without being brittle/chippy then taken one step back to give leeway for some toughness.
 
It's an interesting project and I suspect this thread will be up for some time, as the more I think about it, the more I suspect it will be a back-and-forth, once I will start grinding and testing.

Two things that that highlight my reluctance making thick knives - long term maintenance (thinning) and food release. As some examples of heavier knives on the market demonstrated, the latter can be achieved, but as the knife gets used and sharpened, the former (maintenance) will have to go up. That's the nature of a convex geometry.

I will grind a test knife in the coming weeks, but the two reasons that made me hesitant to try this knife in the past, are still present. Will see.

M
 
I solicited input on heavy chefs knives currently used, trying to understand pros and cons of geometries out there. Based on the input, I will be considering three geometries - convex, hybrid, and asymmetric grind. Probably will select one with least cons for a prototype.

M
 
Need a little guidance here. There are three geometries suitable for a heavy gyuto.

Heavy convex - Kato, Gengetsu

Sword grind - Heiji

Asymmetric - Mizuno

I will probably end up making a prototype of each and tweak each geometry to increase performance, but wanted to hear your opinion.

Which geometry do you guys find most attractive and why?

M

PS: Just ground a Heiji like prototype, now to tweaking the geometry.
 
Obviously all those knives have a following amongst members here, and people's vote would depend on personal preference. Heiji has the better food release and is easier to maintain. While a properly thinned Kato is still one of my favourite cutters. I am also a huge fan of my recently acquired Mizuno Honyaki, and it is probably my current favourite. I haven't tried a Gengetsu, but it is high upy list of Gyutos to try. I'm looking forward to seeing these prototypes
 
Cool.

Basically, Heiji, Kato and Gengetsu share the same grind, the difference is that Heiji preserves the initial bevels while on the other two they are ground into convex. Mizuno is slightly different, but follows the same principle on the dominant hand side.

Prototypes are coming, in fact they will be tested in a pro kitchen in about 2 weeks.

Having learned how to cut bevels properly opens a whole range of possibilities - debas, garasukis, etc.
 
Excuse the mess of my shop and quality of the picture (took with the phone).

Here are two gyutos that share the same basic geometry, but one left with bevels intact and the other is ground into convex. The former needs bevels refinement - wider toward the tip, but the initial hurdle is overcame.

Heavy Chefs Prototypes.jpg
 
Looking good. Will be interested in seeing the end results and maybe stand in line for one.
 
Looks good, already!

I'd like to throw a question at you, and anyone else: If Kato's are one of the best cutters out there, once thinned, are the people thinning the knives with a cm plus flat grind, leading into the heavy convex? Or, are you guys going almost flat, but with a slight rocking motion on your stones, causing a small convex? In my mind, the only way to really thin a knife with heavy convex to the point of actually enhance performance is to virtually flat grind (some human element comes in, of course, causing multiple blended bevels) until it hits the convex that was already ground in. Essentially, what you're making is a Heiji, or exaggerated Itinomonn type of grind. In my experience, concentrating on convexing all the way down to the edge leads to problems. If I'm not mistaken, Marko, your "standard" grind on your gyutos is a very slight convex. These work well, because leadin up to the actual edge, thinking changes to, "ok, now let's make this puppy thin BTE", resulting in a knife that has minor sticktion (nothing to worry about), yet effortlessly cuts.
 
When I say properly thinned, I mean for maintenance, I don't believe the majority need thinning OOTB, I try to follow the convex from around 2/3 of the way up the blade, with a 4-5mm "flat ground" secondary bevel then add a micro bevel.
 
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