Shig clone in mono stainless like AEB-L

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I have a wa Shig and I do love it, I even have a Shig damascus with a yo(!) handle that will be coming to me soon that I got a Japanese friend to order for me from Kiya in Japan. (Luckily while they don't seem to make many yo's anymore-especially in damascus-Kiya seems to have some extra pull with them and they made it for me, I'm chomping at the bit to get it-it should be here by the end of the month.)

Still, I was thinking it would be insanely cool if I could buy a Shig profile knife in a high end stainless steel like AEB-L . Have any of the custom makers here made something close to this? Even better is there any semi custom knife that is close to a Shig profile that is in a mono stainless?
 
wouldn't really be a Shig clone if it's not a clad knife, and i honestly don't know why you would want a monosteel knife over a clad one, if it's going to have the grind of a clad knife. Yoshikane's semi-stainless is pretty close to the concept, otherwise.
 
Yes you are correct, but he has my Shig atm and I know he commented that it was thinner then the older Shigefusa's he was accustomed to.
 
I like the geometry of my shig a lot, but am confused why it couldn't be mimicked in AEB-L or some other stainless?? Why would san mai construction effect the geometry??
 
i believe they are a good bit thinner than a Shig, at the spine, and through the grind, right? The profile is probably similar, though.

As far as I know, Yoshikane geometry is very different of Shigefusa. Both are forged and san mai, but that's where the similarities end. Shigefusa are thin knives, don't be fooled by the super thick tang and machi area.

The disadvantage of a thin san mai knife is that it will bend if not careful (you can bend Shige petty or suji with your fingers, even a gyuto near the tip). Monosteel knives don't have that problem.

Geometry of a knife is how the knife is ground. The advantage of san mai over monosteel, from maker's perspective is that it is easier to finish, easier to keep the knife straight and this allows to lower overall production cost of a knife. Performance-wise there is no difference, and someone says there is, they would have to prove it.

Even thickest Shigefusa I have seen is thinner in cross-section than Yoshikane.

M
 
Copying the profile is probably easy, geometry is what makes it a Shig. Who else does a similar grind?
 
I've looked at a handful of Shiges very closely, and to be honest, the grind isn't anything otherworldly. What makes them so impressive is the perfection of the grind. It seems to me, you can hold any Shige in the light and not see any dips or peaks along the blade face. I am truly impressed with the consistency straight across the board. The food release on them seems to be good, but nothing crazy, and the tip is actually surprisingly stellar. All in all, the grind is just own that has a nice balance of flat (for thinness), and convex (for food release). This is tough to do, but if you ask Pierre, Marko, Devin, Will, Mike, etc, you'll get a beautiful cutter with similar properties. As far as profile goes, maybe ask on of the above guys to mimick the shape. I bet you'll be pleased.
 
I recently got 10 Shigefusas and one Yoshihide, all destined for you guys. I have looked them all over very thoroughly, and without going into specifics, they are all gorgeous blades, with terrific craftsmanship. The grinds, in general, are stellar. The feeling, terrific. As we all know, Shigefusa is one of the "Grail Knives", and I fully understand why. Not surprisingly, I have a feeling I'll be keeping one for my own kitchen, to love and ogle, for years to come. What has surprised me, however, is which knife it is that's made me a little kid. The knife I'm talking about is a 195mm Santoku. Yes, a SANTOKU! I've said before, I'm not a santoku guy. I wasn't, at least...hell, I'm still not, but this little gal has stolen my heart. It's a wonderful size for home use, the look is just incredible, and when I first grabbed it, I went, "Damn...this isn't good". I'm mesmerized by the grind, and while I can't quite put it into words, it just feels like it's supposed to stay with me.

It's the grind :D
 
Send ashi hamono a shig and ask him to copy it in Swedish stainless

do you guys realize this kind of thinking is really a problem for a lot of Japanese craftsmen? Not only does it reflect poorly on the person who asked, but also puts the craftsmen in a very bad position. This kind of problem seems to come up quite often in conversation here, specifically relating to foreigners way of thinking/ordering.
 
does he not do highly custom orders? not like asking to change heat treat or steels. i dont think it would be a problem for him to adjust grind and profile. it's business he would not have gotten otherwise, he can simply say no if he wasnt up for it. i have no interest in making such an order (rather just get a stainless gesshin hide in OPs situation) but i dont see how it's a problem to simply ask.

just to be clear i think custom orders are annoying and frivulous unless the craftsman specifically caters to custom work. i was under the impression hamono was such a person. there are people to do tweaking afterwords, such as yourself or dave.
 
not necessarily... sometimes, but thats not primarily what they do. In fact, custom orders are a very small part of what they do. Anyways, the point wasnt about one company in particular, but rather this method of thinking.

For example, not everyone thinks about it in the terms of it being business they would not have gotten otherwise, and saying no can sometimes be harder than you think. Craftsmen are generally very proud of what they do, and being asked to copy someone else's work can be very hurtful to them. In Japan, however, people are more likely to be non-confrontational as a cultural norm than we are here.

Just as another example, imagine i really love ferarri's design aesthetic and style, but would prefer to have a lamborghini. Both companies think what they do is better than the other, and take great pride in their cars. If i asked lamborghini to make me a ferarri, dont you think they would be deeply bothered by this?
 
It was my understanding that part of what helps with the Shig grind is the very soft cladding. The cladding allows them to rough-shape the knife prior to heat treat using a draw tool like a sen.

When I looked very closely at my old 270 kitaeji gyuto I noticed that it was not just a combination of flat and convex, but that there as actually a concave section just below the spine which seemed to help make the transition from thick spin to thin blade in a smaller space.
 
something else to consider is that the possible heat treatments with clad knives versus zen-ko (Solid steel) knives are very different. In fact, i was just having this conversation today with a craftsmen here.
 
i look at it as a compliment because they think you can do what someone else does even better. isnt that what japanese is known for? making good stuff even better? perfecting, not innovating :D

maybe im crazy, but when i look at the grind on my shig, i looks backwards, like it was made for a lefty, yet cuts perfectly straight. it sure is a head scratcher.
 
Very big :plus1:

Thats why we see so many secrecy now from many blacksmith in Japan. It is actually because of overseas sell.
They share a lot with etch other, but they also have respect for each other and dont copy or clone things.

That respect is not there with overseas costumers or makers :(

And BTW when i asked Yoshikane to make me Mono Steel Knives they was cheaper then San Mai, so that san mai is cheaper is just not true



not necessarily... sometimes, but thats not primarily what they do. In fact, custom orders are a very small part of what they do. Anyways, the point wasnt about one company in particular, but rather this method of thinking.

For example, not everyone thinks about it in the terms of it being business they would not have gotten otherwise, and saying no can sometimes be harder than you think. Craftsmen are generally very proud of what they do, and being asked to copy someone else's work can be very hurtful to them. In Japan, however, people are more likely to be non-confrontational as a cultural norm than we are here.

Just as another example, imagine i really love ferarri's design aesthetic and style, but would prefer to have a lamborghini. Both companies think what they do is better than the other, and take great pride in their cars. If i asked lamborghini to make me a ferarri, dont you think they would be deeply bothered by this?
 
re: secrecy, i always wondered why maker of jon's 'kochi' is not revealed. i will get a chance to use one very soon, pretty excited.

for example, if a guest asked me to recreate someone elses dish, i would not get offended but take the challenge if i had the time. at first i would ask why they dont go the place that makes it in the first place, and then promptly bust out my ego and think i can do it better. sure i would prefer they eat one of my creations, but theyre still getting the food from me and not the competition so it's still a win if you ask me.

but i can definitely see how pride can get in the way of this grey line, especially japanese culture.
 
actually for very similar reasons, but honestly, it was not my call. I always want to share information about the craftsmen (even though it has bitten me in the ass a number of times). However, like maxim said, many craftsmen wont do business with us unless i dont share any information about them.
 
If a customer came and asked me to cook a dish from another Restaurant I'd politely show them the door :D

thats a good example too... and just the same, some restaurants will do this. Most of them will regret it, but just have a very difficult time telling the customer no (this is common in american too, as well as many other countries). Sometimes its because people have the belief that the customer is always right, and sometimes its because saying no is thought to be extremely rude.
 
yeah... its clearly a complicated issue, and most of the time i dont say anything about it... it just so happened that as you posted this, i just returned to my hotel from a craftsman's workshop where we had just finished a conversation about exactly this thing... and i've ended up having this conversation with every craftsman so far. Interestingly, i havent brought up the subject once.
 
do they all go 'those damn muricans have no respect for our pride!'? there are a lot of shady people who will taint the waters, and they ruin it for the rest of us who appreciate all the skill and blood sweat tears involved...
 
haha... for what its worth, its not just americans (though this kind of thinking is clearly very common in the US as a function of cultural norms)
 
Nope, but they are careful thats it. They have just seen increase of Japanese like knives overseas.
As your post say, Lets clone Shig, lets clone Kato, Masamoto etc.
Instead on come up with something new and unique, BTW i see many US or EU makers still do that ! They come up with some amazing unique knives
But if you want a Shig you get Shig lol, you need to remember they work with steel and knives for about 60 years now its not new for them !
They have different gilds and meetings knife-shows like we have here. So they study a lot steel, geometry finish etc. all of blacksmiths do and they continue to do it !!

So there is big reason why they do what they do. They can get about any kind of steel, from US EU Japan etc. So it is not like they are limited to do some kind of steel
I know that Shigefusa made Honyaki before and he also made some of Tamahage , SS, mono steel he experimented with all of them
And he saddled with what he think is best for his kind of knives ! And what he want to achieve with his knives

Believe me it is not what is cheapest or easiest to make that is important for them. If he wanted he could make knives fro Cowry X steel and even thought it will be 2k more in price he will still sell it because of his popularity.
But he simply dont because he thinks that steel is not good for his knives
 
i do love my shig, it is so smooth in every aspect, about as sexy a knife i could think of without bling. the steel is a joy as well. its not my favorite knife, but it reaches out to me in such a unique way that i probably wont ever let it go. it does puzzle me why one would want a clone of this instead of the real thing. real chicken soup, or out of a can? hmmmm
 
Shigefusa does finishing by hand, a fairly inefficient technique, if you ask makers who do all processes on the grinder (bar sharpening), but results in a finish that made Shigefusa famous among knife nuts in the first place. To do the same finish on a monosteel hardened ot 62-63RC is even more inefficient than on a soft clad knife, but again, the end result is worth for some.

Asking somebody to copy a grind is not a guarantee that the copy will be good. Shigefusa has tweaked their grind over years (I have seen different generations of Shiges), and current blades are much better cutters than blades before. Can this be captured in one copy? Maybe, as people often get lucky the first time. And that can be said about any grind. One has to get consistently good grinding a certain geometry (and reinforce it with an ongoing feedback) to guarantee a certain result.

That is why you see makers sticking to a geometry they have perfected grinding. Difficulty of a finish has to do with it somewhat - there are limits how much finishing can be done on a machine, so that forces people to adopt one geometry over another.

To say something is clone is to imply identical copy. Rarely the case, as conditions are different (forge to shape, soft cladding, etc). Reasonable approximation would be the best outcome.

M
 
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