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  1. #1

    HHH Knives's Avatar
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    cleaver time!

    OK Im ready to add a few new design to the line up and have had a lot of requests for cleavers. So Im gona do some in AEB-L.

    May be a while B4 there ready, so I have time to work out the profile, and grinds etc.

    Any advise on profiles, handle size etc with be welcomed.

    Thanks guys
    Randy

    Inspired by God, Forged by Fire, Tempered by Water, Grounded by Earth, Guided by the spirit.. Randy Haas

    240mm Stainless Gyuto!!

  2. #2
    Senior Member JKerr's Avatar
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    Ooooo, this should be great, look forward to seeing what you produce.

    Profile wise, I think most cleavers are pretty similar. Too much belly seems to be a real turn off for most, as for super-flat profiles (a la CCK/Moritaka), that seems to be personal preference. I like a fairly flat heel with a slight rise to the tip, the Mizuno stainless is pretty much spot on IMO.

    I think handles are a major issue with cleavers and as with any knife, it's going to come to personal taste. I don't really care between full tang/scales like the Konosuke, Mizuno etc or rat tail/barrel like CCK/Sugimoto, just so long as the handle is pretty fat. On the other hand, I hate wa-handles and long/thin handles on cleavers, I just find I can't relax my hand completely as they just sit too lose without a firm grip...hope that makes sense.

    Grind wise, I like a slightly chunkier knife. Food release seems to be a problem with most cleavers I've tried; not to say it's bad, but some are just worse and can be quite frustrating on certain foods. For example, the sugimoto #7 and fujiwara teruyasu are both pretty good in this area those that obviously comes with the fact that they are thicker behind the edge. The Yoshikane from Maxim and the Mizuno stainless are great all rounders where as the Konosuke #6 really suffers in this area, albeit it is stupidly thin.

    I've got about 6 or 7 fairly high end cleavers that I can give you traces/measurements of if you like.

    Sorry it's probably all a bit vague, but hopefully it'll help a little. With any luck Jaybett or Andy will chime in.

    Cheers,
    Josh

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    Senior Member ChuckTheButcher's Avatar
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    Are thinking Chinese cleavers or meat cleavers.

  4. #4

    HHH Knives's Avatar
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    Thinking Chinese cleaver at the moment, But one day Im sure to make a meat cleaver.. So anything you might like to add would be welcomed

    Inspired by God, Forged by Fire, Tempered by Water, Grounded by Earth, Guided by the spirit.. Randy Haas

    240mm Stainless Gyuto!!

  5. #5

    HHH Knives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKerr View Post
    Ooooo, this should be great, look forward to seeing what you produce.

    Profile wise, I think most cleavers are pretty similar. Too much belly seems to be a real turn off for most, as for super-flat profiles (a la CCK/Moritaka), that seems to be personal preference. I like a fairly flat heel with a slight rise to the tip, the Mizuno stainless is pretty much spot on IMO.

    I think handles are a major issue with cleavers and as with any knife, it's going to come to personal taste. I don't really care between full tang/scales like the Konosuke, Mizuno etc or rat tail/barrel like CCK/Sugimoto, just so long as the handle is pretty fat. On the other hand, I hate wa-handles and long/thin handles on cleavers, I just find I can't relax my hand completely as they just sit too lose without a firm grip...hope that makes sense.

    Grind wise, I like a slightly chunkier knife. Food release seems to be a problem with most cleavers I've tried; not to say it's bad, but some are just worse and can be quite frustrating on certain foods. For example, the sugimoto #7 and fujiwara teruyasu are both pretty good in this area those that obviously comes with the fact that they are thicker behind the edge. The Yoshikane from Maxim and the Mizuno stainless are great all rounders where as the Konosuke #6 really suffers in this area, albeit it is stupidly thin.

    I've got about 6 or 7 fairly high end cleavers that I can give you traces/measurements of if you like.

    Sorry it's probably all a bit vague, but hopefully it'll help a little. With any luck Jaybett or Andy will chime in.

    Cheers,
    Josh
    Good info, Thanks for the detailed comment.

    Inspired by God, Forged by Fire, Tempered by Water, Grounded by Earth, Guided by the spirit.. Randy Haas

    240mm Stainless Gyuto!!

  6. #6

    echerub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKerr View Post
    Too much belly seems to be a real turn off for most, as for super-flat profiles (a la CCK/Moritaka), that seems to be personal preference. I like a fairly flat heel with a slight rise to the tip, the Mizuno stainless is pretty much spot on IMO.

    I think handles are a major issue with cleavers and as with any knife, it's going to come to personal taste. I don't really care between full tang/scales like the Konosuke, Mizuno etc or rat tail/barrel like CCK/Sugimoto, just so long as the handle is pretty fat. On the other hand, I hate wa-handles and long/thin handles on cleavers, I just find I can't relax my hand completely as they just sit too lose without a firm grip...hope that makes sense.
    I agree that too much belly is a turn-off when it comes to cleavers. Pretty flat with some rise on both ends is generally my preference.

    As handles are a personal preference, I don't really care much about the handle for cleavers. The CCK barrel handle, Takeda wa handle, the typical full-tang double-slab handle, and the Hattori shaped handle are all nice. Basically it's because on the cleaver more so than other knife types I'm really not doing much with the handle. Most of the time I've just got my ring finger, pinky, and the fleshy back edge of my palm on the handle. If I want to do something more precise and I adjust to put more palm on the handle and have my index finger on the spine, I still don't notice much about the handle.

    As long as the handle feels smooth without a strong ridge or something annoying me, I'm pretty flexible on handles.

    I will say that I'm partial to wa-handles for the looks though So I stand in opposition to Josh on this count

    The usual 220 x 110 size is nice. Can't get my wife to use anything that size - she likes something around the 190 x 90 size - but you'll find most of us here who use cleavers like the standard 220 x 110. You can go larger - I've got one that is 265 x whatever - but it's not one that I automatically reach for. 450g to 550g range is nice.
    Len

  7. #7

    HHH Knives's Avatar
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    Thanks Len.

    I had a feeling there would be more then a few opinions and personal preferences. Yet PLEASE keep the input coming. I hope to do a couple of proto's next month or the following month at the latest. Then once I have a design I and most of you seem pretty happy with. I will do a batch of 6 or 10 of these cleavers.

    Inspired by God, Forged by Fire, Tempered by Water, Grounded by Earth, Guided by the spirit.. Randy Haas

    240mm Stainless Gyuto!!

  8. #8
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    Most cleavers have rough fit and finish, with poor handles. Sugimoto seems to embrace the clever is going to be a work horse, while overall fit and finish is rough, they concentrated on making the knife as comfortable and easy to use as possible. The rectangular handle is rounded on the top and bottom. The choil is rounded on the right side. The spine is semi rounded. It all adds up to a knife that is comfortable to hold.

    The 220 x 110 is probably close to ideal for a full size cleaver. It's large enough that the size and weight help with the cut, but still small enough to be agile.

    Sugimoto has right idea on grind, in that they give their knives a strong distal taper, with the heel being noticeably thicker then the tip. Slicing cleavers can be thin and have some flex. The Sugimoto #6 is a stiff knife.

    The profile I prefer is flat section from the heel past the middle of the knife, and then a gentle curve up to the tip. Sugimoto has a little more rise, that starts about an inch before the tip. It helps with slicing onions. Carter does something similar on his nakiri's, but he totally rounds the tip.

    The handle that is closest to my ideal was developed by Fish and Andy. Andy has continued to refine the design. You can see examples of the handle on the Fish thread in the media section. It is a heavier handle, that shifts the center of gravity, back towards the handle, making the knife feel more agile. One of the refinements was to continue the curve of handle into the choil. It makes the handle very comfortable to hold.

    I'd recommend getting in contact with Andy, since he continually trying to find new ways to improve the performance of his cleavers.

    Jay
    I'm a over-sized, under-educated, two onions a month, cutting fool.

  9. #9
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    id also say 220 x 110/105 , 450g.

  10. #10

    HHH Knives's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input. I should have some rough paper drafts to share soon!

    Inspired by God, Forged by Fire, Tempered by Water, Grounded by Earth, Guided by the spirit.. Randy Haas

    240mm Stainless Gyuto!!

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