Are Shun Premiers that bad? Thinking about a set for a beginner

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johnson184

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Hey guys,
I'm relatively new to cooking, but I've got about $500 saved up for some quality kitchen knives. Not going to lie, I first got googly eyed when I saw a Shun Premier, and I'm seriously considering ordering this set.

I have a couple noobish questions. Which knives are essential to have for a beginner? I believe in buy once, cry once so I'd like to invest in some quality knives. It may be bad for me to say this, but I really love the aesthetics of the Shun Premiers and was wondering if there were other quality alternatives that were also very nice looking. Searching through these forums, it seems most people here strongly dislike the Shuns as decent but extremely overpriced knives.
 
I agree with the consensus on shuns. I'm not a big fan. Especially for the price. Check out some of the moderate priced brands on korin or japanesechefsknife. Hattori, Misino, Masamoto, Togiharu, Suisen, Mac are all decent brands. All you really need is a chefs knife "gyuto", slicer "sujihiki", and paring knife. At least to begin with. Maybe a boning or fillet knife if you like to do fish or butchery. Also a petty knife is a useful knife too but those are the three main knives. Korin has several sets of all three of these knives from misino and togiharu starting just under $300. I would strongly recommend these over shun. I prefer carbon steel knives, but if your bad about drying them off and taking care of them, then you might want to consider stainless steal. Carbon steel will rust but if you just clean them and dry them off you shouldn't have a problem. If they do get a little rust on them it is a fixable problem. I hope this is helpful.
 
Welcome to the forum!

As to Shun, just better stuff for the money. For $500 you can get a few necessary badass knives--and even a stone to keep them badass. I would suggest: gyuto, parer/petty (depending on preference), bread knife if you cut a lot of bread and you're all set. If you fill out the questionnaire you will get more specific help on gyuto and accompanying knives--it helps us help you and helps you think about some of the things that are important to you.

Cheers
 
Jon at JKI also has several starter sets like this...including some not listed on his website. Might be worth a call/e-mail to him, as well as Korin and JCK.
 
Shun's look very pretty. They will cut, but you can get a better knife for the money,even with as much bling if you want. Please fill out the questionnaire it will help us help you.

Oh ya :welcome2:
 
Thanks for all your advice so far, and keep them coming please! I'm reading each of them and soaking it all in!

I actually considered doing the knife questionnaire, but honestly... I'm new to all this and will be needing more than just a single knife. Maybe it's just me being picky, but it'd be great to just pick a single line of knives to buy from instead of mix/matching from various makers.
I actually had a few more questions... about how do you store your knives and is it difficult to keep them sharp? My buddy was the one who even alerted me to Shun and just recommended getting everything from them including honing steel and a knife block, but I didn't realize there were so many alternatives out there!
Is there a preferred steel material? I guess I don't really mind overpaying for Shun if they look beautiful and work well, but all these searches keep turning up information on chipping, steel quality, etc.
 
this line is fancy hammered damascus clad stuff, the aesthetic is in the same ballpark as shun premiers, but with better profiles, lower prices and better steel http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/gonbei/hammered-damascus-series.html

+1 on this new line from JKI. Until these became available, didn't see anything that was similar to Shun Premier aesthetics, but with the profile and steel that is popular on KKF. I have a couple Shun Premiers (sold the 8" recently), and they are fine knives. If you get them on sale, they are quite nice. I personally like the Premier handles and haven't had issues with Shun's steel, my major negative is the pro belly profile.
 
I own 4 Heijis, a Singatirin Honyaki, and a white steel #2 yanagi/usuba set. having said that, i think you'd have a hard time beating that setup, if you aren't interested in spending the next 3-5 years learning to sharpen, and if you throw the steel hone away and replace it with a cheap ceramic one. it's the 3-5 years of sharpening experience that almost everybody here forgets. i can't forget it, because i've had so many pass-around knives come across my cutting board.
 
VG-10 still dulls during use. I don't see how encouraging one to spend too much on a block of wood to hold too many knives in, is an excuse for not learning to sharpen. There's multiple sharpening services( Dave, Jon, Mr. Sugai) out there as well that could facilitate the purchase of a better two knives, as opposed to this questionable set IMO.
 
All steel dulls during use, especially carbon. Sending a knife out for sharpening is a real pain in the ass. The Shuns I send out to people seem to last most of them 2-3 years (the ones who this wouldn't be the case for don't send me Shuns), and these are foodies (and I'm always shocked at what comes back, but they are usually still "wife sharp"). Given this, I think it's a decent set. I only sharpen for friends, in an audio forum I run, and almost never for pay, so perhaps my group is strange.
 
'Wife sharp' hah! I like that... You're probably right, I've just never had a good experience with either shuns or vg-10. I don't care for the shun profiles in general, and vg-10 gives poor feedback both when cutting and sharpening IMO.
 
The typical Shun chef knife profile is garbage, for sure. I've never had problems with the steel, though. I find that problems with steel go away when you have a good coarse stone and use it, though.
 
Shuns are not the great things they portray themselves to be. In a pro kitchen they could possibly be the worst thing ever created. People get them seeing how shiny and cool they look and abuse them in the same way they abuse a German knife and they chip, break tips, and are probably the second most dull knives I see next to globals. If properly taken care of, I could see a shun being a great knife. You don't take a Japanese knife to a honing rod period. And you don't treat it like a beater that you can throw around and drop on the ground and it will be okay. Japanese steel is very fragile and should be taken care of as you treat a piece of crystal or a baby. Wipe it clean, set it gently, and most importantly CARE about! You need to take care of your knives and keep them sharp and I think you can find joy in any knife that you buy as long as you like the profile and looks of it.
 
Shuns are not the great things they portray themselves to be. In a pro kitchen they could possibly be the worst thing ever created. People get them seeing how shiny and cool they look and abuse them in the same way they abuse a German knife and they chip, break tips, and are probably the second most dull knives I see next to globals. If properly taken care of, I could see a shun being a great knife. You don't take a Japanese knife to a honing rod period. And you don't treat it like a beater that you can throw around and drop on the ground and it will be okay. Japanese steel is very fragile and should be taken care of as you treat a piece of crystal or a baby. Wipe it clean, set it gently, and most importantly CARE about! You need to take care of your knives and keep them sharp and I think you can find joy in any knife that you buy as long as you like the profile and looks of it.

there are lots of Japanese made knives that should be tossed in the trash, let alone put to a rod. Does this forum seriously have no sense of perspective?
 
Welcome to the Forum.

Dealing with higher end knives, the question you should ask yourself, is how much care are you willing to put into the care and upkeep? As with most things, the greater the price, the more skill is needed by the buyer to use the item and maintain it.

The German style knifes, such as Wustoff and Henkels are an easier to knife to use and maintain, because they are made out of a softer steel. Which means they can take a lot more abuse then a Japanese knife. When the edge of a German knife hits a hard object it will likely roll, while the edge on a Japanese knife will actually chip. The downside of a German knife is that they are heavy, don't get as sharp, and won't stay as sharp as long as a Japanese knife.

Japanese knifes are made out of a harder steel, which means the knifes can be longer, stiffer, lighter, and take a much keener edge then a German knife. Japanese knifes can be made out of carbon steel which will react, right in front of your eyes. Japanese knifes are more fragile then German ones. To get the most out of a Japanese knife, one has to learn how to sharpen.

Shun knives are popular because they are available in most kitchen stores. The stores usually have generous return policies, so you can return the knife after trying them. The typical policy of most Japanese dealers, is that once the knife is used its yours. The only way they will return it, is if something is wrong with the knife.

People first getting into Japanese knives, are attracted to Damascus. It is a very striking look. Most of us will pick up one or two. There is a realization, that it's better to have the money put into the performance of the knife, instead of the appearance, at least until one is a better sharpener. A lot of the high end knives are made out of Damascus style steel.

The main objection to Shun has been the profile on their chef knife. It is set up to rock chop, like the German knives. I think people coming from German knives, find the Shun chef knife, to be a natural fit. The Japanese chef knife the Gyuto is designed to push cut. Of all the chef knives, I've tried the Shun was my least favorite. I didn't like having that tip, waving around, especially in a small kitchen. I did enjoy the Shun nakiri and santoku, in a small kitchen.

Shuns are normally the first Japanese knife, that people pick up. I don't think that they are an easy knife, for a beginner to learn to sharpen on. Dave with Japanese Knife Sharpening, has noted that Shun's take the keenest edge among stainless steels, when they are sharpened on leather straps.

Except for manufactures I don't know anybody who is a fan of knife sets. The chef knife does 95 percent of the work in the kitchen. Everything else is secondary to it. I'd put most of my budget into picking up a good one, plus a few stones to maintain it.

When it comes to buying knifes all of us, benefit from an experienced dealer, who can answer our questions. All the dealers who have sub forums would be excellent resources. Most of us are comfortable recommending Jon at Japanese Knife Imports because, he will sell what a person needs, not necessarily what they want. He will explain why a knife is or isn't a good choice. Before Jon got the store, he was a member of all the forums. A knife nut who is living the dream.

Shun is a nice introduction to Japanese Knives, especially for people coming from German knives. The stores that usually carry Shun have generous return policies, so people can buy knowing that they can return the knife if it doesn't work out. Many people will be happy with their Shuns, for the few that enjoy Shun, but want more, Shun is a gateway to higher end knifes.

Jay
 
Wecome to the Forum:) I have sharpened many Shun Premiers.I find they are easy to sharpen.You have to be careful not to mess up all that surface bling.The steel rod in that Shun set I would not use on the thin VG-10 blade.

For 500.00 you can buy a few quality knives with better Geometry & steel than the Shuns & have coin left over for a whetstone.Learning to sharpen whatever knives you get is the key to good performing blades.If for home a magblock strip on the wall is a way to store your knives.
 
Me actually thinking is there soooooooooo many alternatives to Shuns looks and F&F? Where are them? Masamoto? Really?

Yeah, Hattori comes to mind, and what else really? We can talk performance but this is for people that have already strong preferences.

I wouldve snagged those shuns, and had eyecandy in the kitchen.
 
didn't see anything that was similar to Shun Premier aesthetics, but with the profile and steel that is popular on KKF.

Really? - Almost all of the big makers sell a Tsuchime/hammered damascus line - It's probably the most popular OEM blade out there, available in Yoshihiro/Togiharu/Kanetsune/Kikuichi/Takayuki/JCK flavours, plus others I've probably missed.

My two cents:

The profile of the Shun chef's is unconventional for a gyuto, and almost universally denounced on the forum. I am not a fan myself.
There is nothing wrong with their VG10 - It is a high-performance steel at good hardness. The tales of chipping/crap steel come from poor sharpening/user abuse and not least the fact that it is fashionable to criticise Shuns, which are not as esoteric as many knives discussed here.
The price of the Premiers is competitive with other VG10 "Tsuchime"/"Hammered Damascus" series, plus the Shuns have fancier handles than these. The best value for money in these series is probably the JCK Gekko, although Korin's curent 15% off sale puts the Togiharu hammered damascus (the same OEM knife imo) in the same ballpark.

Some will advocate that the 19c27/Swedish steel "Hammered Damascus" knives are superior to the VG10 knives.
 
Really? - Almost all of the big makers sell a Tsuchime/hammered damascus line - It's probably the most popular OEM blade out there, available in Yoshihiro/Togiharu/Kanetsune/Kikuichi/Takayuki/JCK flavours, plus others I've probably missed.

Come on... Togiharu hammered? Or yoshihiro damascus? Last time I checked out Shuns FF and feel were light years from yoshihiros, or Ive seen Gekko. Them feel very cheap, Im not saying they are bad, esp for the price, but FF or look is not the same league.
It is the bling, but theres nothing wrong in liking it.
 
Come on... Togiharu hammered? Or yoshihiro damascus? Last time I checked out Shuns FF and feel were light years from yoshihiros, or Ive seen Gekko. Them feel very cheap, Im not saying they are bad, esp for the price, but FF or look is not the same league.
It is the bling, but theres nothing wrong in liking it.

Like I said - much more bling handle on the Shun, don't dispute that that the fit and finish is better either - which makes them good value.

The blade is the same material however.
 
I was in your exact shoes not that long ago, $500 bucks to spend on some good knives. Thinking that shun and global were the bees knees until i came across this forum. You really dont need all the knives in those sets, i got a gyuto/chefs, petty and parer in the hattori fh line and it was absolutely all the knife i needed. I have since tried a friends shun premier and can honestly say my hattori was considerably better, the heat treat done on them is arguably the best on VG-10 steel. Now, i have a bonafide knife addiction and many more knives, but i would heed the advice these guys give you, which for the most part will be similar for most things, they know their ****. Also, i dont believe it is that hard to keep your knives usably sharp on stones, to get them screaming sharp is a different story....
 
shuns profiles are deal breakers, sorry. just watching all the wrist action required to use one makes me feel tired.

Some of the Shuns I have had to sharpen have so many waves & dips in them I have to use the edge of my stone,I agree it is not the steel or the bling that turn me off it is the profiles.

Though the larger Shun premier Gyuto is better that the 8" version.It is thin at the edge,sharpens up nicely,Very pretty knife.I can understand why people go wow seeing it.I feel that most all of Shuns chipping is knife abuse.They sell these things in all the department & Culinary stores cases of shun lines.Alot of people buy them.Think about it most people have zero knowledge about knife care,buy a pretty thin Shun wt VG-10 steel,break the tips put chips in the edge then I repair & sharpen them & give them a short version in no uncertain terms about knife care.
:soapbox:
 
Have to agree with the steel question: if the maker knows its trade, Vg10 is not a steel to be snobbed per se. My first japanese knife was a Hattori HD and despite having tested very decent stuff like Yusuke's AEB-L or Yoshikane's SKD11, it still impresses me.Shuns? Not a fan for the profile and price but never tried them, so can't comment.I'd pick a selection of different knives over a set any day. And it's right: you need at least a waterstone and practice: a dull knife is not fun, brand notwithstanding.
 
Johnson,

First, welcome!

Second, you're on the right track. Yep, the Shun Premiers look pretty, and feel decent in the hand, but you're going to find very few endorsements here, based on performance, profile, and chipping issues, and most people on here think you can get better steel than VG-10 (and Shun's VG-10 seems to be on the lower end of the VG-10 steels by various knife makers. You were already sensing this in the question posed in your thread title (the short answer is, "Yes, it is that bad--at least for the money you're paying." You can do much better.)

Many folks on here know an incredible amount about knives, and many of us are obsessed with them (I'm more the second than the first). The collective consensus is going to be that you should go with something different.

Very few people here are going to endorse a knife set in a block. Once people get past the idea of having a matching set (which isn't that hard a place to get to), you'll probably be able to see the wisdom of buying the shapes and profiles you need (at least at first--beware that you could be entering the slippery slope of the very pleasurable obsession of the knife quest), which gives you the option of getting good value at various price points. Most knife sets include some knives that get little to no use, which pretty much cancels out any of their initial value. I now really like looking at my knives and having various styles and makers in the collection—it looks so much cooler. And is so much better than any set from any individual maker.

The questionnaire is designed to elicit a response, so people can gauge what you know and like (or the opposite), and to give you helpful information. It was designed with community input and discussion. Simply put, if you take the time to put in answers (even non-answers are helpful), people are going to be able to give you much better answers.

Saying, “What knife should I buy?” is a bit like saying, “What car should I buy?” You’re not going to get good suggestions until you give some idea of how you are going to use either, what features are important or not, etc.

At the very least, what are you using now? What kinds of things do you most frequently cut? And you will need a way to keep whatever you buy sharp.

If you want to do this right, invest in a good gyuto—it will cover a very large percentage of most people’s needs. You can also look into a decent parer (or petty/utility knife), but it doesn’t have to match the quality of your gyuto. I think 120mm is a good all-around size. Or you could go with a longer petty and just use cheap Forschners for paring, and buy new ones occasionally. That is bigger than a parer, but still feels like a smaller knife, and the added size will give you some more options. I don’t think you need a sujihiki/slicer to start off unless you mention a strong need for that. You’ll also need to put some of your money into maintenance and sharpening.

You can get some entry level gyutos for ~$100, but you have a lot more, and better options at the $150-200 level (quite easy to go higher—just ask! ;-). You could spend $50-75 on the petty, and then will need perhaps a ceramic hone or strop, and at the very least a combination stone. It might also be a good time to upgrade your board, depending on what you’re using now. Edge grain at the least, maybe end grain if you care enough to want to spend that money on something that will extend the life of your edges the longest. Having a fairly large board is nice if you have the space—it can make prep easier and more enjoyable.

If you have money left, you could get a bread knife and/or suji/slicer. Or those could wait if you prefer (or if you need the time to save a bit more money).

Above all, the gyuto will most likely get the bulk of the use, so devote as much as you can to that (and things that will keep it performing at the highest level).

And keep your old chef’s knife around to use anytime you want to protect your new gyuto, to give to your less-careful friends and family “helping” in the kitchen, and for sharpening practice.
 
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