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Gesshin Uraku, what's the steel? - Page 4
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Thread: Gesshin Uraku, what's the steel?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by labor of love View Post
    ignorance? not so much, the unimportant information is more and more often being touted as prevalent. i have no idea what steel is in shigafusa, kato, misono swedish, gesshin ginga and others i have purchased,i dont see the need to know. i dont want the bias that sometimes comes with steel stypes.
    You do not see one, it does not mean it should not be present. Some people do no need to know the size of the engine of the car... so what now, lets hide this information? You are bias with the steel type because there are not enough info. Vendors should provide more information instead of less.

    I disagree, the first J-knife I ever bought was White 2 and it sucked. Sorry ht, even more sorry grind and not impressive in the any way. One of the last knives I bought was White 2 and I love it. Had I judged by steel, I wouldn't have bought the second knife. In this case the ignorant thing to do would have been to judge the knife by it's steel...
    Same point as above, there should be more information present.
    Hiding information is barely and rarely if ever a solution.

  2. #32
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    Looks guys there is nothing wrong with not disclosing the steel type. Jon has to protect his products or everyone will be selling them. Plus everyone who has ever shopped at JKI knows he only sells quality products!

    Also I have been testing knives for a few years now and I can tell you the heat treat is much more important than the steel type. I have received multiple knives that I thought were all different steel, wrong just different heat treats. They all performed wildly different!

    If much more informational to talk about how a particular knife performs rather than the steel overall, I can agree it may be nice to know, however if will not really benefit you in anyway.

  3. #33
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    Another story about steel..........Spyderco knife company did some testing on two knives made from the same grade of steel with the same heat treatment that they did themselves. The steel was made at two different steel mills in two different countries. One performed quite well and the other performed quite badly. This is a big part of the reason that makers in Japan stick to one steel from one supplier. That's also the reason why they forge, so that they can control the condition of the steel going into heat treating.

    Bob Dozier has the same philosophy, although he does not forge, he buys his D-2 from only one source and tests each batch to make sure it meets his standards, when it doesn't he sends it back. Bob will not disclose his heat treat or the source of his steel because other makers using the same recipe sometimes have very different results.

    It seems kind of silly to keep things a secrete, until you get burned a couple of times.

    Hoss

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruso View Post
    You do not see one, it does not mean it should not be present. Some people do no need to know the size of the engine of the car... so what now, lets hide this information? You are bias with the steel type because there are not enough info. Vendors should provide more information instead of less.



    Same point as above, there should be more information present.
    Hiding information is barely and rarely if ever a solution.
    Would you publicly share your trade secrets, intellectual property, proprietary research, information that gives you a competitive advantage, etc.?
    Michael
    "Don't you know who he is?"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgraeff View Post
    Looks guys there is nothing wrong with not disclosing the steel type. Jon has to protect his products or everyone will be selling them. Plus everyone who has ever shopped at JKI knows he only sells quality products!
    This. Anyone who argues otherwise simply doesn't understand business, or more pertinently, appreciate the amount of time, effort and money the best retailers invest in sourcing, selecting and developing their products. If you're new here, you won't be aware that the most knowledgeable folk here have been burned in the past regarding others profiting from their efforts.

  6. #36
    Senior Member brainsausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthebeaver View Post
    This. Anyone who argues otherwise simply doesn't understand business, or more pertinently, appreciate the amount of time, effort and money the best retailers invest in sourcing, selecting and developing their products. If you're new here, you won't be aware that the most knowledgeable folk here have been burned in the past regarding others profiting from their efforts.
    Yup.
    Today is as good a day to die as any. Except for tomorrow. I have plans tomorrow.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhlee View Post
    Would you publicly share your trade secrets, intellectual property, proprietary research, information that gives you a competitive advantage, etc.?
    I think this misses the point completely. Not only is the level of intellectual property and research rather small, perhaps insignificant, but also the steel that the knife is made out of really isn't a trade secret since it is fully testable by anybody who purchases the knife. Other details, like the heat treatment etc, are much less so, and probably do represent some sort of intellectual property. The competitive advantage of any small business catering to enthusiasts is in the customer service more than the product.

    It's more of a balancing act. On one hand, the market for knives like this is relatively small so there is an interest in preserving the current monopoly and on the other hand the value of any good to a given consumer increases as it becomes more transparent, which is readily visible by people in this thread saying, more or less "I would pay for this if I only knew." It shifts the demand curve.

    Personally, I would be wary of buying something if somebody told me I didn't need to know what it was made of. I don't like the sentiment and I don't like the construction of a group in the know and a group out of it.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzer View Post
    I think this misses the point completely. Not only is the level of intellectual property and research rather small, perhaps insignificant, but also the steel that the knife is made out of really isn't a trade secret since it is fully testable by anybody who purchases the knife. Other details, like the heat treatment etc, are much less so, and probably do represent some sort of intellectual property. The competitive advantage of any small business catering to enthusiasts is in the customer service more than the product.

    Personally, I would be wary of buying something if somebody told me I didn't need to know what it was made of. I don't like the sentiment and I don't like the construction of a group in the know and a group out of it.
    Then go buy from MR who will sell you black steel that doesn't exist...you roll the dice and get what you deserve. It also happens that mr is likely one of the main reasons why these things remain secret--a thief just waiting for the next successful thing to ripoff. If as you say the competitive advantage lies in the customer service then why do you care what the steel is? I own knives of all types of steel and could really give a **** what they are made of--just how they perform.

    I guess you think Jon travels to Japan for free so he can do his research/development? Also, I'd love to hear how 'anyone' can test to see what steel they have in their knives.
    one man gathers what another man spills...

  9. #39

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    While it is true that heat treat and geometry have a lot to do with how a knife performs, that's not how a lot of newer or more casual customers look at it.

    I'd say all of us went through a stage where just the type of steel and its HRC hardness would really sway us to buy a given product. Heat treat and geometry, at that stage, is not a consideration - only what's on the spec sheet that gets us. Casual customers never get beyond this, and then whoever offers that steel and hardness for the lowest price gets the sale.

    So, for this reason, I think it's fair to say that service and knowledge are not always enough to hold on to customers. Vendors are therefore sometimes wise to hold some things - including steel type - pretty close to their chests.
    Len

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzer View Post
    I think this misses the point completely. Not only is the level of intellectual property and research rather small, perhaps insignificant
    For a small (perhaps even one-man) operation? It really isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by mzer View Post
    the market for knives like this is relatively small so there is an interest in preserving the current monopoly
    The "current monopoly" as you put it, if you are talking about the biggest retailer, is without doubt the leading parasite, aggressively picking up products introduced/developed by others. See the problem now?

    Why anyone would be wary of buying a Japanese knife from Jon, Maxim etc. baffles me. And I don't think there are "groups in the know/out of it" either, that is nonsense. The retailers have their relationship with the smiths, and that is it. Often a smith will not want the specific details of their methods disclosed for obvious (to any rational observer) reasons.

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