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Thread: That which shall not be named

  1. #131

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    Thank you for the welcome, I look forward to learning more about and from the community. Hopefully on less of a hot button issue. As an explanation I'm part of an older generation and while I recognize the "volatile " nature of internet forums I still have a hard time adjusting.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Justin0505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceconvoy View Post
    Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is

    Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by spaceconvoy View Post
    And how is this exactly? I've read this before, but no one can seem to explain the physics behind it. Does heat treating with fewer knives make you inherently more in control of the temperature? Is DT manipulating the temperature during the process based on some sort of spidey sense? Seems like some kool-aid drinking bull to me
    Quote Originally Posted by RJD55 View Post
    I'm one of the newcomers to this forum reading this thread, this is actually my first post. I don't know either Dave or Mark and have no interest in getting sucked into the love or hate relationship with either that so many posters on this thread seem to have. I have purchased from CKTG but my real interest is in getting the product I want at a decent value.

    I have purchased an Artifex from CKTG and it was a good value out of the box. It's definitely thick behind the edge and is a serviceable but not high performance knife. I also use a Watanabe and the Artifex grind is inferior, but it's also a lot cheaper at $75 than the Watanabe. However, the Artifex becomes a great value if you are willing to put in a little bit of effort to thin the blade. The AEB-L steel is not difficult to work with and thinning a blade is not a high skill task or that difficult with the right stone set. I will say that I've also thinned an Artifex in M390 steel and that it was a more difficult but still manageable project. If you are willing to put in the effort the Artifex becomes a very good knife with excellent steel at a very low price. If you want to pay more CKTG also offers in house lines with much better grinds at much higher prices, consumer can make their own choice.

    I'm not sure I can relate to the fury about Mark's business ethics. The only concrete issue I saw in the thread was that Mark starting carrying product that Dave already carried but at a lower price. It seems to me that the Japanese suppliers have the right to expand their products to more retailers if they want and retailers have the right to include those products in their store. Dave may have done initial research on the product but that just means he gets to be first on the market with them, I don't see how he is entitled to any long term monopoly. Business is not a gentleman's club, this is just business.

    My interest is as a consumer. Right now CKTG has an extensive collection of different knives from a wide range of small Japanese craftsman and large scale manufacturers at a decent price point. Their service has always been excellent for me. That said, in a year or several years another company will come along and offer better value than CKTG and most of the customers, including me, will shift to them. This is the way the competitive free market system works.
    Welcome! I don't think that anything that you've said is wrong, but just that you're missing a few things. Mark being a capitalist and selling an identical product that was popularized by someone else for less or even seeking to get exclusive rights to sell those products is a bit of a dick move, but not what causes people to get the pitch-forks and torches.
    What really gets people in a burning kinda mood is Mark selling sub-par products and calling them premium. (like selling a stone that's NOT the JNS 1k as the JNS 1k). I think that some people would even tolerate that to some extent, because that's what we've come to expect from "bargain" deals in the US. However, I think that the final hard-line for most people is when Mark and his side-Ken attempt to manipulate and suppress the negative feedback while simultaneously seeding more bogus praise via shills and pet forum trolls. It's this attempt to invade or corrupt a community that many of us are very passionate about that creates a guttural and vicious response.

    Also, this is a largely virtual community and industry that's based on trust and reputation far more than the general consumer market where customers take their trusted vendors "at their word" as well as on the voucher of the community. The standards are much higher here and any sign of poor quality product or anything other than complete honesty and impeccable, ridiculously good customer service can be a kiss of death.

    All this talk of CKTG made me go back and check it out just to see what other new developments there might be and I came across a new line of Richmond knives named after the wavy line created by differentially HT'ing high carbon knives using clay and water.... and they're even supposedly made from blue #1 steel!
    Normally the mizu-honyaki's that exhibit this are in the $1000+ price range, and those in blue #1 are pretty rare as it's a difficult steel to work, but this line starts at like 1/10th that price... hmmmm....
    then I looked at the pictures and read a bit more carefully: "san mai" with a "real forged hamon" huh? ......LOL.
    If this isn't a line designed to sucker people with some, but not enough knowledge, who are shopping based on specs, buzzwords, and price, then I don't know what is...

    reminds me of this:
    http://mashable.com/2012/02/27/china-istove-seize/

    and this:
    http://thechive.com/2013/08/28/chine...iar-28-photos/
    "I gotta tell ya, this is pretty terrific. Ha hahaha, YEAH!" - Moe (w/ 2 knives). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVt4U...layer_embedded

  3. #133

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    Justin - I have to agree that differential HT and san mai don't seem consistent.

  4. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by RJD55 View Post
    Justin - I have to agree that differential HT and san mai don't seem consistent.
    That's because they're not even within 100 miles of being the same thing. Traditional Japanese swords were often of san mai construction (there were a few reasons for this, none of which are really relevant here), and were also differentially heat treated with a coating of clay. They were also folded many times. All of these processes were performed for a specific purpose, only one of which has any minor value for the end user beyond aesthetics in the modern kitchen knife (and that's only if the cladding is stainless). Today, these methods (when applied to our modern steels, using modern metallurgically derived heat treat practices) produce nothing more than an aesthetically pleasing blade, and basically are there only to showcase the skill of the craftsman making them. Now...while this may still make them desirable...using the words that have come to define these processes to sell knives that weren't made using the methods described, shows either a complete lack of morals, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding the items you're selling.

    Take your pick, but either way I wouldn't buy Kleenex from the guy...based on the rather high likelihood that I'd be shipped box of packing paper.
    I try to be the man I am..in times of broken lives. Shattered dreams and plans..standing up to fight. Pressures and demands..staring at the knife. Holding in your hands..

  5. #135
    Senior Member brianh's Avatar
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    What about the brands of knives he carries that are from other, well-known makers? Is there any reason to believe those are of dubious origin or quality? I've never purchased knives from him FWIW, only diamond spray once.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Justin0505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrisAnderson27 View Post
    That's because they're not even within 100 miles of being the same thing. Traditional Japanese swords were often of san mai construction (there were a few reasons for this, none of which are really relevant here), and were also differentially heat treated with a coating of clay. They were also folded many times. All of these processes were performed for a specific purpose, only one of which has any minor value for the end user beyond aesthetics in the modern kitchen knife (and that's only if the cladding is stainless). Today, these methods (when applied to our modern steels, using modern metallurgically derived heat treat practices) produce nothing more than an aesthetically pleasing blade, and basically are there only to showcase the skill of the craftsman making them. Now...while this may still make them desirable...using the words that have come to define these processes to sell knives that weren't made using the methods described, shows either a complete lack of morals, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding the items you're selling.

    Take your pick, but either way I wouldn't buy Kleenex from the guy...based on the rather high likelihood that I'd be shipped box of packing paper.
    Yeah... and did you actually look at the pictures of the things? LOL, the "hamon" (which I'm guessing is just the cladding) is almost all the way down to the cutting edge. If that was actually the line where the hard and soft steel met in a mono-steel knife then the knife would have a very short life before you sharpened up into the soft steel. To anyone that actually knows what a good mizu-honyaki looks like, this is pretty laughably bad.

    As for differential heat treat and clad blades, I don't think that the two are not completely mutually exclusive. AFAIK the really dramatic effect that Bill Burke is famous for in his "Hon warikomi" style comes from some pretty special HT.... but then again those are multi-thousand dollar customs from one of the greatest kitchen knife makers in the world... not a hundred buck special made by a mysterious "3rd generation bladesmith" to Mark's spec...

    I might trust that something sold by him as Kleenex to actually be Kleenex, but something sold as "Richmond super ultra premium deluxe extra soft and strong face-tissues made from green materials" I'd suspect might just be worn out sheets of sandpaper... with holes in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by brianh View Post
    What about the brands of knives he carries that are from other, well-known makers? Is there any reason to believe those are of dubious origin or quality? I've never purchased knives from him FWIW, only diamond spray once.
    The simple answer is NO. For the most part, if he's selling something like a Takeda, a Kikuichi, Shun, Victorinox, etc it's going to be the same as anywhere else, but maybe a few bucks cheaper. But where that get's a bit misleading is when the popular version sold on another site is actually made to that other site's spec.
    For example the Gesshin knives that Jon sells are all made to Jon's specs and pass his QA, so even if CKTG where to sell a knife by the one of the same makers like Heji, it would not be the same knife. This has already happened with the Kato. The version of the knife popularized and sold by Maxim / JNS are custom for that vendor and not the same as what CKTG sells.
    "I gotta tell ya, this is pretty terrific. Ha hahaha, YEAH!" - Moe (w/ 2 knives). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVt4U...layer_embedded

  7. #137
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    When I joined this forum I could not imagine how much drama can it generate:-/ It reminds me of Bill Gates vs Hobbyists at Homebrew Computer Club story of the 70th.

  8. #138
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    Maybe discussions of re-handles, grinds, and stones only go so far before people crave some action!

  9. #139

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    I think many of you miss the point here. And maybe forgot what happened

    It is not becoase some sell product cheaper then us we are disappointed.

    it is because deliberately name the product same names and hide it behind Meta data so in search results they come up first, even if product is not same !
    Also clamming on forums that they are totally same and they sell them cheaper then his competitors.

    I have to defend Dave a bit too, i remember what happened and how it happened maybe many of you forgot but it is maybe good reminder for all of us !

    On KF there was some vendors that posted they links in EVERY EVERY new thread that was made by new member with they products ! Then when it was banned to do that he payed people to do it for him !
    After Dave made a list of stone that he recommended First and best what he knew, the vendor made that SET of stones cheaper and called it also same name SET as Dave.

    So it is not because he started to sell same stones cheaper, it is because he took the knowledge and research Dave did and just copy it. When he and Dave was very good Friends !!
    And there is much more behind the scenes that you also dont know about

    Can you imagine Some of our vendors here will start to act same way !!! Do you really want that here ????
    In every new thread i will start post my links of my knives and stones and say they have to buy from me because i am cheaper

  10. #140

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    Guys, what I've learned about the Richmond Hamon knife from your posts is that you can have a differential heat treat with a hamon and san mai. I've also learned that you don't seem to own or have any direct knowledge of the knife. The best of the internet is knowledgeable people sharing what they know and I think you have some real knowledge to offer, but when you just go on a hate rant none of that knowledge comes into play.

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