That which shall not be named

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CompE

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I'm curious about the stones that cannot be named from the site that cannot be named. Every attempt that I have made to search I get a flood of known fanboys and promoters. Can anyone point me to any honest reviews?
 
Has it gotten this far already?holy **** people's personal vendetta's are stupid.

Korin's combination stones are good for the money, dave or marks suehiro 1200k stone will put you knife in a good place. The "bricks" dish a lot and i"ve never reallly had a use for them.
 
Opinions are based upon how people sharpen, what they sharpen and what products they have used in the past. Best thing to do is pick up a stone and try it. Make the opinion yours.
 
Opinions are based upon how people sharpen, what they sharpen and what products they have used in the past. Best thing to do is pick up a stone and try it. Make the opinion yours.

I don't really need another stone right now, and I don't want to spend the cash just to try one. I'm just curious and would like to find a good honest review by someone other than the guys pushing the products.
 
it would seem as if the question is automatically set up to solicite a given response. Any positive opinion would automatically be deemed fanboyism and discredited. Hardly a way to reach a rational decision.

BTW, one only needs to lurk for awhile to learn that calling one set of enthusiasts fan boys is the pot calling the kettle black to the 10th degree.
 
Are you talking about Latte 400? If so, I have one, and I'm willing to give an honest review of it. However, it's the only coarse stone (by which I mean 400-600 grit range) that I've owned as I've only been sharpening knives for the past half year or so, and I can't really give you any comparison to other coarse stones. I'm considering doing a passaround to get other people's opinion, and if you're interested, I'd even be willing to temporarily swap this stone with you for another coarse stone so we both get some experience.

As of right now, my opinion of it is that it's decent. It cuts at an okay rate, but I wouldn't call it amazingly fast. It seems to dish pretty quickly though as I've gotten some noticeable dishing after an hour of sharpening a really dull German steel knife, but I've read that coarse stones tend to dish pretty quickly no matter what. I may also be using too much pressure on it.
 
the stones ive used/owned from both the bamboo and *** series are overpriced for what they are. they are priced pretty similar to gesshin and chosera and they arent half as good.
 
I've found that if a specific product question is posed, that responses are pretty unbiased (though they still are opinions). If question is linked to a vendor then responses may skew a little. Which stone is being considered?
 
At the risk of getting in some hot water....

I really, really like a certain 'speckled' 1k stone.

It's the only stone I've tried from the line but it's a very nice feeling stone and it cuts very fast.

I have not used the Gesshin 2k or Bester 1.2k which are probably my next moves in that grit range (the JNS 800 looks awesome too... so little money, so many stones) - but I am very happy with the purchase.

It dishes fairly quick in my experience so it requires constant flattening but it is by no means a 'bad' stone.

I use it & a Suehira Rika 5k as my standard 1-2 punch for my work knives and I personally find it very effective. But I am not in the business of sales and I understand and respect why people would not wish to do business with certain folks - but objectively, as far as stones go, I am a fan of this 1k stone. My two cents.
 
It's a fact of life that retailers would push their own house labels, For some, thats good they invest the time & money
to test and in some cases tweak formulas for the stones. That being said, there are only a finite number of
companies that do the actual production. Googling "japanese whetstones" or something as germane as
'Bladeforums" will result in tons of hits to mine for info.
The names that come up most often indicates basic truths, they work & people like them.

My shopping list of "Generic" must haves { Every body sells them, even Amazon } so nobody gets offended.

Naniwa chosera 400 & Bester 1200 { "MY" perfect starting kit, One could survive with just these 2 }

Next Suehiro Rika 5k

Gesshin 1 K extra large This is a luxury item, but I love to use it. { before the bester if I'm stopping there. or the Rika. }

The rest you can live with out, But they are fun to play with:
Naniwa Snow White 8k & a Kitayama

a Jumbo JNS Binsui I'm sorry I mentioned this by retailer. But this thing is a beast
 
Hi guys,

I'm new here. I've been using some Chinese stones for sharpening.
I have a combination stone for rough work from Chan Chee Kee.
Then I move up to some generic Chinese stones at 3000 and 5000 to finish.

At each stage, I notice an improvement in blade performance.
Are generic stones that bad?

I presume that a nicer branded stone may cut nicer and work faster and probably last longer, but generic stones won't hurt my knives will they?
 
The stones wont hurt the blade unless they have toxic inclusions or lines in them. Human error will though. Say you have an extremely slow cutting stone, it takes longer to cut the bevel, therefore more time on the stones, more room for error, hands/arms get fatigued etc.
 
it would seem as if the question is automatically set up to solicite a given response. Any positive opinion would automatically be deemed fanboyism and discredited. Hardly a way to reach a rational decision.

BTW, one only needs to lurk for awhile to learn that calling one set of enthusiasts fan boys is the pot calling the kettle black to the 10th degree.

I wrote "that which shall not be named" because any attempt to name the line of stones that I'm referring to or the place that sells them is replaced with ***** on this site. I can understand not allowing links to non-approved vendors, but sometimes this site's rules make it difficult to have serious discussions.

I am not discrediting any positive review. I say that I can only find fanboy and pusher's reviews because I can mostly find dozens if not hundreds of reviews from a few people. Two of those most prolific sources sell the stones (Ken and Mark), and the third gives glowing reviews of absolutely everything sold at that place (**************). There are some vendors that I would trust because I know that they have heavily tested their products before they will consider putting it on their site. Back at the old site, you can read how Dave tested some stones for months and sent them to independent testers before making them available on his site. At the other place, dozens of stones suddenly became available in a very short period of time. That doesn't mean that they are all junk, but I'm going to want to see some independent 3rd party reviews. And sorry **************, but if in your reviews you love (or hate) EVERYTHING, your opinion is useless to me.

I can only recall a couple of reviews that weren't made by one of the 3 reviewers mentioned above. Cliff Stamp gave a review of a 24 grit stone. (Everyone seems to either love him or hate him, but my google search of his name was entertaining.) Personally, I'm not sure what to make of a guy whose stone holder doubles as his left hand. I also found a review comparing a 320 vs. the Beston 500. That particular review was interesting, but I didn't think that the two stones were close enough in grit to compare, and the pro's and con's that the reviewer listed led me to the opposite conclusion that the reviewer made. There are a handful of other reviews done by people who clearly had nothing else to compare against. "I needed to compliment my *** stone with something coarser/finer so I contacted Mark (or Ken) and he hooked me up with *** which I like just as much as the first".

I'm most curious about the 150 grit stone from the same line, how it compares against using an Atoma plate for rough work, and how the Latte 400 compares vs. the Gesshin 400 (is i the same stone?) Beston 500 and Chosera 400. Based on what I've seen, I would stick with my Atoma plate, and I would probably go with a Chosera or Gesshin 400 if/when I'm ready to move on from my Beston. But, really I'm curious about the entire lineup. Some of the offhand comments here would give you the impression that you are better off picking up bricks from Home Depot. I really don't doubt that they are serviceable, even if overpriced. With the size of the lineup, you'd think that one or two of them might even be worth the price. Has anyone here found a stone from that line that they really like?

EDIT comment:

One name that I tried to type (didn't edit out myself) was edited out. I can't even mention "that guy" to say that I don't trust his reviews!
 
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It's a fact of life that retailers would push their own house labels, For some, thats good they invest the time & money
to test and in some cases tweak formulas for the stones.

You are absolutely right that retailers will push their own products. However, some retailers invest time and money to test their products, others do not. I've been around long enough to form my own opinions regarding which vendors fall into which category.
 
I don't really understand what you're getting at / your logic.

On one hand you've got unknown quality product from a site with known paid or solicited reviews that appears disreputable to you and on the other hand you've got dozens of alternatives in the form of well known, excellent products from honorable retailers that support this community.

Are you asking just out of curiosity or would you seriously consider buying the stones from a source where you couldnt even trust the reviews just to save yourself a buck?
 
I don't really understand what you're getting at / your logic.

On one hand you've got unknown quality product from a site with known paid or solicited reviews that appears disreputable to you and on the other hand you've got dozens of alternatives in the form of well known, excellent products from honorable retailers that support this community.

Are you asking just out of curiosity or would you seriously consider buying the stones from a source where you couldnt even trust the reviews just to save yourself a buck?

:plus1: this makes no sense to me either...
 
I don't really understand what you're getting at / your logic.

On one hand you've got unknown quality product from a site with known paid or solicited reviews that appears disreputable to you and on the other hand you've got dozens of alternatives in the form of well known, excellent products from honorable retailers that support this community.

Are you asking just out of curiosity or would you seriously consider buying the stones from a source where you couldnt even trust the reviews just to save yourself a buck?

Mostly curiosity. There are certain stones that I would not buy from that site because I know that they didn't do their own research on them and I have spent a couple of extra dollars at other sites where they did the original research. The stones from that site's in-house lines appear to be unique to them, where they actually did the research themselves. If they found a real winner on their own (accidentally or as a result of real research), then why not buy it? The problem with untrustworthy people is that you can't trust them to lie or be wrong 100% of the time.
 
But the fact that they are untrustworthy people to begin with is exactly why you stay away from them 100% of the time, even if they do actually have a quality product. They can't be trusted and don't deserve the business.
 
So if Tony said all Fiats were great. And Tony's friends said all Fiats were great. And then one day Tony built a Fiat that was OK. And they all said it was really really great. Would you believe them or just buy a Toyota?
 
I'm most curious about the 150 grit stone from the same line, how it compares against using an Atoma plate for rough work, and how the Latte 400 compares vs. the Gesshin 400 (is i the same stone?) Beston 500 and Chosera 400. Based on what I've seen, I would stick with my Atoma plate, and I would probably go with a Chosera or Gesshin 400 if/when I'm ready to move on from my Beston.

I just upgraded from a Chosera 400 to a Gesshin 400 and I like just about everything about the Gesshin better. Bigger, feels much, much nicer, clogs less, and so far seems to cut similar & dish less.
 
I didn't mean to say that the CKTG was, by any means the worst of the worst, but it's just that there are so many other really fantastic options, especially when it comes to stones. IMO the worst part of CKTG is their association with Ken S. as their sharpening expert -the guy is terribad (this is judging from posts, videos, and examples of his work that I've seen 1st hand). The knowledge, experience, and research that Dave, Jon, and Marko have behind the products that they sell is so much better that it's not even comparable. -and that's not even considering the issue of honor, respectability, and plain ol' like-ability.

There are some knives that CKTG sells that are not readily available elsewhere or for even close to the same price and are known and established to be very good, but as far as stones go, I've never even been tempted.

I'm basing my opinions on "alternatives" for my experience that the Gesshin 400, 4k, and Dave's monster blue synth aoto all perform better than advertised. The Takishima from Jon has to be the best value in jnats currently going. I have 3 others that originated with Maxim that are excellent and very true to his descriptions. I've also got a 140 atoma from Dave and a custom 8k diamond from Marko. I dont feel like I have a NEED for more stones, but I often consider new stuff and will probably buy more just because the experience with what I've got so far has been so enjoyable.
 
But the fact that they are untrustworthy people to begin with is exactly why you stay away from them 100% of the time, even if they do actually have a quality product. They can't be trusted and don't deserve the business.

So I'm assuming you also refuse to shop at Walmart or basically any other major corporation? I don't understand why a significant number of people on this forum seem to believe that capitalism shouldn't apply to the knife world. Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?

We've seen two ways of dealing with competition. You could constantly complain about how unfair and 'evil' the other guy is, then take your ball and go home, and build your own fantasy world where you can pretend he doesn't exist. Or you could build a brand that features unique products and distinguishes itself on quality... which approach has been more successful?

And speaking of trust, this blind hatred for Mark seems to have influenced some formerly trustworthy people's judgment. I own an Artifex in aeb-l (I'm poor and it was a gift), and yes it's thick as a brick behind the edge and inconsistently ground, but it does have very good steel. If some people can't admit that, then they're just as partisan and untrustworthy in my book.
 
Isn't being curious a good enough reason to pick up a stone? Try it out, share what you find out with the forum. Want a second opinion? Do a pass around.

Jay
 
So I'm assuming you also refuse to shop at Walmart or basically any other major corporation? I don't understand why a significant number of people on this forum seem to believe that capitalism shouldn't apply to the knife world. Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?

We've seen two ways of dealing with competition. You could constantly complain about how unfair and 'evil' the other guy is, then take your ball and go home, and build your own fantasy world where you can pretend he doesn't exist. Or you could build a brand that features unique products and distinguishes itself on quality... which approach has been more successful?

And speaking of trust, this blind hatred for Mark seems to have influenced some formerly trustworthy people's judgment. I own an Artifex in aeb-l (I'm poor and it was a gift), and yes it's thick as a brick behind the edge and inconsistently ground, but it does have very good steel. If some people can't admit that, then they're just as partisan and untrustworthy in my book.


I think you're missing an important distinction between aggressive capitalism (trying to game supply and demand, corner markets, etc.) and being deceitful. Capitalism isn't "wrong", just a bit tactless when you use the free exchange of knowledge and experience in a small community to do it and the people you're undercutting are some of it's members (and also the ones that supplied that info). That will piss some people off and might not make you many friends, but it is, as you put it, good for the undiscerning consumer and maybe even good for the market as a whole to make more products available to more people and at a lower cost.

However, I think that the stuff that really gets people fired up is the sense that (intentionally or not) some of the marketing on social media and descriptions listed on his site are misleading, inaccurate, or just plain wrong.
This is exemplified with the Artifex: none of problems with thickness bte, or the grind are mentioned in the description or any of the reviews on the site. The truth is that it's a $90 knife with good steel and terrible finish grinding that needs a few hours of pretty skilled work in order to really make it a decent knife. Now, for someone who has more time and skill than money, that might be an attractive proposition. But the problem is that the potential customer is not made aware of that when they're making the decision to buy one.
It's a knife that's clearly marketed to poor and inexperienced students and kitchen pros, who are the least likely to have the knowledge, skills, or equipment to fix the poor-performing knife effectively or the money to send it to someone (or even the knowledge of who to send it to).
Another problem is that AEB-L was popularized by one of the best kitchen knife makers and heat-treat wizards in the world. It's a steel that really takes some knowledge and small, very well controlled batches to get all of the legendary performance out of it. So, people have heard that AEB-L is great (and it is when used in 4-figure custom by Devin Thomas) but the same qualities will not necessarily transfer well to a full production/factory batch-heat-treat environment.

It would be one thing if he sold / market the AEB-L like some custom car shops sell their kits / replicas: "here's what you're getting, and here's the work it will require." If you want box of parts and raw materials and to do the assembly and finished work yourself, great! here's what that will cost. But, if you want something finished with all the work done except adding fuel and turning the key, they here's the addition labor cost to have us to that for you."

If the Artifex was really ground, finished, and sharpened properly, it would have to cost more, maybe more than it's intended customer could afford. But the problem is that he's passing off rough finish as final finish.
Yeah, he offers "special sharpening" at an added cost, but that doesn't even begin to address the problems with the blade and from what I have seen first-hand and in pictures, the premium sharpening job is inconsistent at best and comically bad at worst.

Walmart intentionally prays on the poor and the ignorant. They sell crappy products to people too ignorant to know better and/or too poor to afford better and in many cases with no other alternative close by because Walmart has intentionally driven them all out of business. But the main reason why I don't shop there isn't because I don't like their business practices; it's because I don't want to risk spending my money on crap, when there's non-crap available elsewhere at a price that I can afford.
Even if some of what they sell isn't crap, I doubt it's as good or better than the alternatives.

I think that comparing Mark to Wally is a bit harsh, but you're the one who brought it up and you seem just as clueless about each of them and what possible objections anyone could have to them.
 
I think that comparing Mark to Wally is a bit harsh, but you're the one who brought it up and you seem just as clueless about each of them and what possible objections anyone could have to them.

Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is :)

Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.
 
Another problem is that AEB-L was popularized by one of the best kitchen knife makers and heat-treat wizards in the world. It's a steel that really takes some knowledge and small, very well controlled batches to get all of the legendary performance out of it. So, people have heard that AEB-L is great (and it is when used in 4-figure custom by Devin Thomas) but the same qualities will not necessarily transfer well to a full production/factory batch-heat-treat environment.

And how is this exactly? I've read this before, but no one can seem to explain the physics behind it. Does heat treating with fewer knives make you inherently more in control of the temperature? Is DT manipulating the temperature during the process based on some sort of spidey sense? Seems like some kool-aid drinking bull to me
 
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