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Thread: That which shall not be named

  1. #21
    daveb's Avatar
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    So if Tony said all Fiats were great. And Tony's friends said all Fiats were great. And then one day Tony built a Fiat that was OK. And they all said it was really really great. Would you believe them or just buy a Toyota?
    Dave
    Older and wider.

  2. #22
    I like the new Hyundai genesis.

  3. #23
    Senior Member ThEoRy's Avatar
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    I drive a Dodge Charger RT.
    Starting this harvest I'm a starving startling artist/
    Lyrical arsonist it's arduous spitting this smartest arsenic/

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CompE View Post
    I'm most curious about the 150 grit stone from the same line, how it compares against using an Atoma plate for rough work, and how the Latte 400 compares vs. the Gesshin 400 (is i the same stone?) Beston 500 and Chosera 400. Based on what I've seen, I would stick with my Atoma plate, and I would probably go with a Chosera or Gesshin 400 if/when I'm ready to move on from my Beston.
    I just upgraded from a Chosera 400 to a Gesshin 400 and I like just about everything about the Gesshin better. Bigger, feels much, much nicer, clogs less, and so far seems to cut similar & dish less.
    "God sends meat and the devil sends cooks." - Thomas Deloney

  5. #25
    Senior Member Justin0505's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to say that the CKTG was, by any means the worst of the worst, but it's just that there are so many other really fantastic options, especially when it comes to stones. IMO the worst part of CKTG is their association with Ken S. as their sharpening expert -the guy is terribad (this is judging from posts, videos, and examples of his work that I've seen 1st hand). The knowledge, experience, and research that Dave, Jon, and Marko have behind the products that they sell is so much better that it's not even comparable. -and that's not even considering the issue of honor, respectability, and plain ol' like-ability.

    There are some knives that CKTG sells that are not readily available elsewhere or for even close to the same price and are known and established to be very good, but as far as stones go, I've never even been tempted.

    I'm basing my opinions on "alternatives" for my experience that the Gesshin 400, 4k, and Dave's monster blue synth aoto all perform better than advertised. The Takishima from Jon has to be the best value in jnats currently going. I have 3 others that originated with Maxim that are excellent and very true to his descriptions. I've also got a 140 atoma from Dave and a custom 8k diamond from Marko. I dont feel like I have a NEED for more stones, but I often consider new stuff and will probably buy more just because the experience with what I've got so far has been so enjoyable.
    "I gotta tell ya, this is pretty terrific. Ha hahaha, YEAH!" - Moe (w/ 2 knives). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVt4U...layer_embedded

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bahamaroot View Post
    But the fact that they are untrustworthy people to begin with is exactly why you stay away from them 100% of the time, even if they do actually have a quality product. They can't be trusted and don't deserve the business.
    So I'm assuming you also refuse to shop at Walmart or basically any other major corporation? I don't understand why a significant number of people on this forum seem to believe that capitalism shouldn't apply to the knife world. Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?

    We've seen two ways of dealing with competition. You could constantly complain about how unfair and 'evil' the other guy is, then take your ball and go home, and build your own fantasy world where you can pretend he doesn't exist. Or you could build a brand that features unique products and distinguishes itself on quality... which approach has been more successful?

    And speaking of trust, this blind hatred for Mark seems to have influenced some formerly trustworthy people's judgment. I own an Artifex in aeb-l (I'm poor and it was a gift), and yes it's thick as a brick behind the edge and inconsistently ground, but it does have very good steel. If some people can't admit that, then they're just as partisan and untrustworthy in my book.

  7. #27
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    Isn't being curious a good enough reason to pick up a stone? Try it out, share what you find out with the forum. Want a second opinion? Do a pass around.

    Jay
    I'm a over-sized, under-educated, two onions a month, cutting fool.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Justin0505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceconvoy View Post
    So I'm assuming you also refuse to shop at Walmart or basically any other major corporation? I don't understand why a significant number of people on this forum seem to believe that capitalism shouldn't apply to the knife world. Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?

    We've seen two ways of dealing with competition. You could constantly complain about how unfair and 'evil' the other guy is, then take your ball and go home, and build your own fantasy world where you can pretend he doesn't exist. Or you could build a brand that features unique products and distinguishes itself on quality... which approach has been more successful?

    And speaking of trust, this blind hatred for Mark seems to have influenced some formerly trustworthy people's judgment. I own an Artifex in aeb-l (I'm poor and it was a gift), and yes it's thick as a brick behind the edge and inconsistently ground, but it does have very good steel. If some people can't admit that, then they're just as partisan and untrustworthy in my book.

    I think you're missing an important distinction between aggressive capitalism (trying to game supply and demand, corner markets, etc.) and being deceitful. Capitalism isn't "wrong", just a bit tactless when you use the free exchange of knowledge and experience in a small community to do it and the people you're undercutting are some of it's members (and also the ones that supplied that info). That will piss some people off and might not make you many friends, but it is, as you put it, good for the undiscerning consumer and maybe even good for the market as a whole to make more products available to more people and at a lower cost.

    However, I think that the stuff that really gets people fired up is the sense that (intentionally or not) some of the marketing on social media and descriptions listed on his site are misleading, inaccurate, or just plain wrong.
    This is exemplified with the Artifex: none of problems with thickness bte, or the grind are mentioned in the description or any of the reviews on the site. The truth is that it's a $90 knife with good steel and terrible finish grinding that needs a few hours of pretty skilled work in order to really make it a decent knife. Now, for someone who has more time and skill than money, that might be an attractive proposition. But the problem is that the potential customer is not made aware of that when they're making the decision to buy one.
    It's a knife that's clearly marketed to poor and inexperienced students and kitchen pros, who are the least likely to have the knowledge, skills, or equipment to fix the poor-performing knife effectively or the money to send it to someone (or even the knowledge of who to send it to).
    Another problem is that AEB-L was popularized by one of the best kitchen knife makers and heat-treat wizards in the world. It's a steel that really takes some knowledge and small, very well controlled batches to get all of the legendary performance out of it. So, people have heard that AEB-L is great (and it is when used in 4-figure custom by Devin Thomas) but the same qualities will not necessarily transfer well to a full production/factory batch-heat-treat environment.

    It would be one thing if he sold / market the AEB-L like some custom car shops sell their kits / replicas: "here's what you're getting, and here's the work it will require." If you want box of parts and raw materials and to do the assembly and finished work yourself, great! here's what that will cost. But, if you want something finished with all the work done except adding fuel and turning the key, they here's the addition labor cost to have us to that for you."

    If the Artifex was really ground, finished, and sharpened properly, it would have to cost more, maybe more than it's intended customer could afford. But the problem is that he's passing off rough finish as final finish.
    Yeah, he offers "special sharpening" at an added cost, but that doesn't even begin to address the problems with the blade and from what I have seen first-hand and in pictures, the premium sharpening job is inconsistent at best and comically bad at worst.

    Walmart intentionally prays on the poor and the ignorant. They sell crappy products to people too ignorant to know better and/or too poor to afford better and in many cases with no other alternative close by because Walmart has intentionally driven them all out of business. But the main reason why I don't shop there isn't because I don't like their business practices; it's because I don't want to risk spending my money on crap, when there's non-crap available elsewhere at a price that I can afford.
    Even if some of what they sell isn't crap, I doubt it's as good or better than the alternatives.

    I think that comparing Mark to Wally is a bit harsh, but you're the one who brought it up and you seem just as clueless about each of them and what possible objections anyone could have to them.
    "I gotta tell ya, this is pretty terrific. Ha hahaha, YEAH!" - Moe (w/ 2 knives). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVt4U...layer_embedded

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin0505 View Post
    I think that comparing Mark to Wally is a bit harsh, but you're the one who brought it up and you seem just as clueless about each of them and what possible objections anyone could have to them.
    Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is

    Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin0505 View Post
    Another problem is that AEB-L was popularized by one of the best kitchen knife makers and heat-treat wizards in the world. It's a steel that really takes some knowledge and small, very well controlled batches to get all of the legendary performance out of it. So, people have heard that AEB-L is great (and it is when used in 4-figure custom by Devin Thomas) but the same qualities will not necessarily transfer well to a full production/factory batch-heat-treat environment.
    And how is this exactly? I've read this before, but no one can seem to explain the physics behind it. Does heat treating with fewer knives make you inherently more in control of the temperature? Is DT manipulating the temperature during the process based on some sort of spidey sense? Seems like some kool-aid drinking bull to me

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