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Thread: "Thinning behind the edge"?

  1. #71
    Senior Member NO ChoP!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDispossessed View Post
    just FYI, my gyuto which hits the 400 grit weekly is 9 months old and has lost 1mm height at the heel.
    you can use a low grit stone with finesse.
    and just being a long time forum member or pro cook does not make your knowledge and skills infallible.
    To me 1mm in 9 months is a bunch, especially for knives meant to last a lifetime. So in 5 years you'll have lost almost 7mm? Your gyuto would be short even for a suji at that point....

    This is my point exactly. Just because I try to make my knives last doesn't mean I don't know how to sharpen, and the implication is just plain rude. Spending $400, or more on a knife is a very substantial investment for me, and I try to baby my knives as much as possible. I clean my Nike Air Max everytime I wear them, too.

    I truly didn't mean anything disrespectful towards Jon, and I can clearly see it came off that way. My apologies.

    I do still stand by my statement that not trying to make your edges last, and resorting to frequent low grit sharpening is not necessary. I do understand that many are true knuts and just enjoy the practice, but for me I enjoy spending time to get my knife as perfectly tuned as possible, and then seeing how long I can make that edge last in a hardcore environment.
    The difference between try and triumph is a little "umph"! NO EXCUSES!!!!!!!
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  2. #72
    Senior Member NO ChoP!'s Avatar
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    And I'm going to throw something else out there, and try to be as careful as possible to not offend anyone.

    I think the main difference we are witnessing here is two different types of users. Being that I work in a kitchen, I use my knives for a living. The current job I hold actually has me with a knife in-hand for a good part of the day. My joy of knives is in using them daily, as a tool of the trade, something I rely on.

    On the flip side, you have guys who simply enjoy nice knives. They use them occasionally in a home environment, maybe to make some awesome dinners. Their joy probably comes from handling them. Sharpening, polishing, tuning; so when they do use them, they are friggin' machines....probably just as or more knutty than the pro. I get it.

    But, I think we need to coincide and respect one another.
    The difference between try and triumph is a little "umph"! NO EXCUSES!!!!!!!
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Salty dog's Avatar
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    The basis of my confusion is my perception of a knife that needs to be thinned behind the edge. An example would be any of the "house" knives in my kitchen. They've been sharpened on a Tru-Hone machine or at too steep of angles. The edge begins to resemble the spine. I just have never purchased a quality knife where any edge thinning is needed. To this day I have never consciously "thinned the edge" on any of my knives? Even the pudgy Mizuno honyakis. Hence my confusion.

    I rarely use my 400, I don't spend much time on the stones and I sharpen at a pretty shallow angle. (Or is it steep? You know what I mean)

    I don't have a theory on this but this has been my experience.

  4. #74
    Canada's Sharpest Lefty Lefty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NO ChoP! View Post
    And I'm going to throw something else out there, and try to be as careful as possible to not offend anyone.

    I think the main difference we are witnessing here is two different types of users. Being that I work in a kitchen, I use my knives for a living. The current job I hold actually has me with a knife in-hand for a good part of the day. My joy of knives is in using them daily, as a tool of the trade, something I rely on.

    On the flip side, you have guys who simply enjoy nice knives. They use them occasionally in a home environment, maybe to make some awesome dinners. Their joy probably comes from handling them. Sharpening, polishing, tuning; so when they do use them, they are friggin' machines....probably just as or more knutty than the pro. I get it.

    But, I think we need to coincide and respect one another.
    You're 100% right. I'm essentially a home user, so I could get all up in arms, but the truth of the matter is, pros use these and get the satisfaction from knowing that one of their most important tools is always going to come through for them, while making their job a bit more personal. For a home user, it's all in babying and taking care of your prize knife - be that sharpening, polishing, oiling, etc.

    Of course, a large part of my job is cooking, despite the fact that I consider myself a home user. The funny thing is, my work knives are the ones that I get the most satisfaction out of using, despite being less glamorous than my "prizes". Interesting....
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  5. #75
    So what exactly is the difference between thinning behind the edge and putting on a microbevel?

  6. #76
    Senior Member EdipisReks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    So what exactly is the difference between thinning behind the edge and putting on a microbevel?
    a microbevel thickens an edge.

  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    So what exactly is the difference between thinning behind the edge and putting on a microbevel?
    I don't think those are even related.

    On a different note, I don't see a need to put my knife a coarse stone constantly (IMO once you've set the bevel or have done whatever thinning you needed on a coarse stone). I only use a coarse stone for repairs mostly chips and what not.

  8. #78
    Senior Member EdipisReks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NO ChoP! View Post
    Being that I work in a kitchen, I use my knives for a living. The current job I hold actually has me with a knife in-hand for a good part of the day. My joy of knives is in using them daily, as a tool of the trade, something I rely on.
    if you're absolutes were true, there wouldn't be wire thin yanagibas at sushi restaurants.

  9. #79
    Senior Member EdipisReks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty dog View Post
    Even the pudgy Mizuno honyakis. Hence my confusion.
    I used your pass-around Mizuno. It was a nicely made knife, but it didn't cut as well as it should have, because it was very thick behind the edge. I've handled a newish one, since, and it wasn't that way, close to OOTB. The new one was thick at the spine, but tapered quite abruptly, to a fine edge. I can only assume yours started out that way.

  10. #80
    Senior Member EdipisReks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harlock0083 View Post
    I don't think those are even related.

    On a different note, I don't see a need to put my knife a coarse stone constantly (IMO once you've set the bevel or have done whatever thinning you needed on a coarse stone). I only use a coarse stone for repairs mostly chips and what not.
    When I thin my knives, which is a regular part of my maintenance, I do it with a Chosera 1000. I only go to a coarser stone when something needs correction. It typically takes 5-10 minutes per side, when part of a routine, and only that long because I like to set up a uniform finish before spending another 2 minutes per side with finger stones, to restore polish.

    When I do regular thinning, it is after I have sharpened enough that the primary bevel has thickened the edge to the point where it can be noticed (perhaps every third time I sharpen a knife). Thinning then smooths out the noticeable bevel back into the normal geometry of the knife, and resets the geometry. This does not take long at all, if done regularly, and restores cutting ability. We are not talking about very much removed metal, and almost no removed metal at the edge, which means the knife only slowly reduces in height. Removing lots of metal at the edge is what reduces the height of a knife. This should be self-evident.

    My goal, when i get a knife that I really like the performance of, is to keep it cutting as close to the best it can for the life of the knife. Not keeping the geometry in place is, to me, like not regularly changing your car's oil. Maintaining the geometry of the knife regularly extends the life of the knife, not vice verse. A knife that is thin at the edge and has a good geometry needs to be sharpened less often, not more, because the geometry of the blade does much of the cutting work. This is not a regimen that came automatically to me, but instead took time and practice and observation and talking to people more knowledgable than myself. I sharpen my knives a lot less than I used to, and cutting performance stays much higher, because I'm treating my tools correctly.

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