Which one of these 2 should i buy?

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M

Mundo

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Hello to all. I wanted to ask you about of these two knives before deciding on one in concretly to buy it.


The first one is a Moritaka gyuto kurouchi 21mm, realized in Aogami Super.
http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/moritaka9.html



The second one is a Watanabe gyuto kurouchi 18mm " all purpose ", like the first one but realized in Yasuki blue steel with stainless outer.
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/gyuto.htm


Bearing in mind that the measure does not matter for me (21mm vs 18mm) ...

what difference exist between these 2 steels? ...

what differences can I notice at the moment of using them in kitchen? ...

... And the question of the million dollars... which would you buy?...


I apologize to the moderators if this thread is not in the correct place, move it to a more suitable place if you consider it to be opportune.


Salud.
 
Mundo said:
Hello to all. I wanted to ask you about of these two knives before deciding on one in concretly to buy it.


The first one is a Moritaka gyuto kurouchi 21mm, realized in Aogami Super.
http://www.**************.com/moritaka9.html



The second one is a Watanabe gyuto kurouchi 18mm " all purpose ", like the first one but realized in Yasuki blue steel with stainless outer.
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/gyuto.htm


Bearing in mind that the measure does not matter for me (21mm vs 18mm) ...

what difference exist between these 2 steels? ...

what differences can I notice at the moment of using them in kitchen? ...

... And the question of the million dollars... which would you buy?...


I apologize to the moderators if this thread is not in the correct place, move it to a more suitable place if you consider it to be opportune.


Salud.
Click to expand...

Its been pointed out that the Moritaka's have overgrind issues. I guess the Watanabe then.
 
Thank you for the answer Harlock, but... I don't really understand what you mean about Moritaka.


Salud.
 
He means that you might buy a knife that is worthless after a sharpening or two (meaning a hole could show up in the edge). It's a POS. Go for the Watanabe as they have many fewer quality control issues.

Cheers

if you really want to know more about moritaka google site:kitchenknifeforums.com moritaka or just try this thread
 
...OOOk... So, i'm understanding that the Moritaka's core maybe is thin and short extended in the width, which is a problem for the long life of the knife.

Then, that kind of knives are more commercial than functional...

Is really sadly to think that not all the japanese craftsman are quite honest for that it would be necessary to expect from them...

The myth is falling down for me...

By the way, I have a Watanabe yanagiba which works wonderfully and I am very happy with, so probably I'll get the second soon.


Salud.
 
The stainless cladding of the Watanabe is non-reactive when you cut foods like onions. The Moritaka and Kochi have soft iron cladding that will discolor foods until a protective patina is formed. Get the Watanabe if that is an issue for you.

Rick
 
Charles and Rick both make good point though I personally would choose the Kochi. You can get it in a kurouchi finish which will aid in keeping the reactivity down and the f and f is awesome as is the ability to take a screaming edge.
 
I have both a Moritaka AS, and the same Watanabe. The Moritaka is a nice cutter; it is a bit reactive, and the kurouchi isn't very tough. In AS, it can be a bit chippy, but it's retention is good. The Watanabe is a very well ground, very thin behind the edge, cutting machine. The stainless clad kurouchi is nice. I would choose the Watanabe in a heart beat, and would say it's a killer knife for the buck. I would buy it again, and that's a rare statement for me....
 
Mundo said:
...OOOk... So, i'm understanding that the Moritaka's core maybe is thin and short extended in the width, which is a problem for the long life of the knife.

Then, that kind of knives are more commercial than functional...

Is really sadly to think that not all the japanese craftsman are quite honest for that it would be necessary to expect from them...

The myth is falling down for me...

By the way, I have a Watanabe yanagiba which works wonderfully and I am very happy with, so probably I'll get the second soon.


Salud.
Click to expand...

If you didn't have time to read the entire thread on Moritaka, you should at least look at this post Many, but not all, Moritaka knives are reported to have overgrinds. Dave reported that 7/10 Moritaka knives that he sees have issues. Many knives are only sent to him because the owners found issues and hope that Dave can fix them. Who knows how many other owners will not realize that there is an issue until the blade's profile starts to change.

This certainly demonstrates of a lack of skill and/or quality control, but not necessarily an indication of dishonesty if the craftsman isn't aware of his own inadequacies. On the other hand, if there is a vendor who would claim to expertly inspect every knife before it's shipped, yet will still sell (and push) a product that has caused numerous complaints, and then give customers a hard time when a flaw is discovered after it was sold...
 
Out of the two, I'd prob go with the Watanabe but I really like the Kochi suggestion. That is a great kuro uchi knife.
 
Thank you very much at all for the orientations, and thanks @CompE for the link, I've not come to this post and haven't understood good that it was of the overgrind (the image really scary me, it looks like a emmental cheese). I am not an expert in knives but it is the first time that I have news on which this could happen ... Blessed innocence.

Probably I have not used the correct word before speaking about honesty and the word should have used are unconcern or carelessness at the moment of doing a quality control. And it does more damage to him than to nobody. By the other hand and thinking in it, these are crafted "handmade" knives... Things happen... Or not.

I want to say, when I prepare a dish, nobody better than me knows if all the ingredients are cooked since they should to construct the quite final one, if nonetheless I serve it... Or my dishes don't worry me or the clients don't worry me or I don't know make it better, which inevitably will drive the clients to leave elsewhere, is a question of time.

By the way, the kochi also was contemplating it as possibility but it's raised a bit of price with regard to others, but thak you so much for the advice.


Salud.
 
Until I see an honest statistical survey of the over grinds, I'll go with my own experience, which tells a different story. There's so much exaggeration, innuendo, and slippage (in reports between AS and blue 1/2, etc.) that it's really tough to say what the real state of Moritaka QC is.

I recognize that there we're problems, but it's very hard to cut through the fog of bluster and noise, not to mention the reflexive anti-CKTG sentiment, that surrounds Moritaka here.

I'm sure the Watanabe is a fine knife, though, and it may be a better choice.
 
Ignoring the overgrind issue, Moritaka's kurouchi is annoying in so much that it is incredibly reactive and very difficult to passivate once the lacquer coat has worn off.

The stainless cladding on the Watanabe makes it much lower maintenance, and the general consensus is that his blue steel is seriously good stuff.
 
I agree about the cladding -- that's my least favorite Moritaka characteristic.
 
mkmk said:
Until I see an honest statistical survey of the over grinds, I'll go with my own experience, which tells a different story. There's so much exaggeration, innuendo, and slippage (in reports between AS and blue 1/2, etc.) that it's really tough to say what the real state of Moritaka QC is.

I recognize that there we're problems, but it's very hard to cut through the fog of bluster and noise, not to mention the reflexive anti-CKTG sentiment, that surrounds Moritaka here.
Click to expand...


I wish that this would stop being assumed. Moritaka doesn't get bad press here just because CKTG peddles them, sure that may be part of it, but they make the knives crappy all on their own - CKTG just ignores the crap.

There's plenty of great products that CKTG sells that doesn't get bad press here - not even by me - so assuming that Moritaka's crap talk is being over sold or over done here just because some of us are anti-CKTG is simply off base.

If Moritaka ever turns around and starts not-overgrinding knives, finds a decent kurouchi finish, and grinds the knives thinner than ass thick then I'll be the first to wave the flag for them and help them turn things around but since their sales are high I doubt that they have an incentive to change their quality....it's only morality and reputation that's at stake here and some don't value this as much as they do $ or ¥.
 
For the subject at hand....

Watanabe knives are superior to Moritaka in every way I can think of. The only Watanabe knives that I don't like are the cheap ones he has on his site, the real rough shaped kurouchi (standard line?), his pro kurouchi that are stainless clad are really nice knives. I'd even state that if CKTG sold them. :wink:
 
I'd like to add that I brought a Moritaka back from Japan and it had over grind issues so we aren't just talking about knives sold in the US. I doubt that Moritaka will do anything to resolve the issue soon either. They were recently featured on a nationally broadcast show in Japan and orders have gone through the roof. I suspect rather than correcting issues with their present staff they'll just be adding more unskilled workers to the production line.
 
The fear of over grinds is not what steered me away from Moritaka, it was all talk about how annoyingly reactive they are. Can't stand a knife that is going to discolor or change the taste of food.
 
Hello again, I must say to all that already I am determined to order the Watanabe. Arrived to this point, the only thing which don't like of the Watanabe gyuto 18mm blue2 is that the ferrule is plastic and not buffalo.

I have contacted for e-mail with Mr Sinichi and he has said to me that I can have one buffalo horn for 6000Y more ... 6000Y for a ferrula ... Is not it a bit costly?

It might buy one separate and I place it ?


Salud.
 
Mundo said:
Hello again, I must say to all that already I am determined to order the Watanabe. Arrived to this point, the only thing which don't like of the Watanabe gyuto 18mm blue2 is that the ferrule is plastic and not buffalo.

I have contacted for e-mail with Mr Sinichi and he has said to me that I can have one buffalo horn for 6000Y more ... 6000Y for a ferrula ... Is not it a bit costly?

It might buy one separate and I place it ?


Salud.
Click to expand...

Yes, 6000 yen for a ferrule upgrade (if the wood is the same) is taking the piss a bit.
 
Are you guys sure they are really over grinds? Maybe they are actually 'rustic grantons'?
 
Mundo said:
.... I can have one buffalo horn for 6000Y more ... 6000Y for a ferrula ... Is not it a bit costly?
Click to expand...

Why not just buy the Pro 210mm Gyuto? The extra $$'s outside your budget will be made up for by the fact you probably will never replace this knife - it's a 'one & done' purchase.
FWIW - behind the scenes it's likely that Sinichi isn't replacing the ferrule, he's replacing the handle/ferrule assembly - which another craftsman provides. Putting that handle on a knife just adds 6000Y
 
mikemac said:
Why not just buy the Pro 210mm Gyuto? The extra $$'s outside your budget will be made up for by the fact you probably will never replace this knife - it's a 'one & done' purchase.
FWIW - behind the scenes it's likely that Sinichi isn't replacing the ferrule, he's replacing the handle/ferrule assembly - which another craftsman provides. Putting that handle on a knife just adds 6000Y
Click to expand...

The pro 210mm is soft iron clad, a very different animal to the stainless kurouchi. I'd sooner buy the 180 stainless personally.
 
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