Takeda cleaver comparison - New vs Old (pic heavy)

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chobint

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I have recently acquired two Takeda cleavers. A relatively new one and the old andy777 cleaver. I've put a hair popping edge on both of them, but am noticing quite a discrepancy in cutting performance. The older cleaver is remarkably thicker and heavier. It also has a flatter profile, which I prefer. The new cleaver has a great distal taper and is very thinly forged. To my surprise, the older cleaver far outperforms the new cleaver. The older blade, while much thicker in general has a taller bevel and is thinner behind the edge. This cleaver falls through food with the slightest sawing motion. The newer cleaver has a relatively shorter bevel and will split carrots like a wedge rather than cutting them. Thus reinforcing that thinness behind the edge is a key dimension in cutting performance.

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Nice comparison. Luckily, you can pretty easily take the newer one to the stones and widen that bevel while you thin behind the edge as well.
 
You got the AndyTakedaChuka and didn't immediately sacrifice the other Takeda chuka as a means of appeasing the knife gods...?!?

What did you expect to happen....???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?????!!!?
 
Here's a few extra pics to show the thickness behind the edge. I do wonder if the old one was thinned at some point or if that was just the way they came back then.

New Cleaver
takedacleavers006.jpg


Old Cleaver
takedacleavers003.jpg
 
Is the new one SS clad? If it is, how does it compare?
 
Chobint you made good observation.I think you nailed it.The heavier blade with the taller bevel because of those two factors can make it a better cutter.Cleavers are great tools finding one that cuts well,hold on to it.
 
I might have a Takeda stainless nakiri on the way, and I wonder if the new ones' geometry lives up to the oldies. Thanks for showing this and stimulating my paranoia. :knife:
 
From what I remember, Andy put some time into making that cleaver "just right" for himself. The profile felt much more proper to me over the rest of my cleaver family which I own which are all more bellied. Thank you for sharpening it properly, it was one thing I always struggled with because of its size and angles. Old skool Takedas are definetly way more badars than the new ones. Maybe back then Mr. Takeda built knives with more passion, and now the time is here to build knives to help retire. Looks like the Andy cleaver has 1/3 more metal on it than the new one.
 
Talking with someone who was over at Takeda's workshop for a few days last month, and who has visited Takeda a few times already, it's not a matter of passion. The impression I get is that Shosui Takeda is as passionate about knives and jnats as best of us here.

He is either adjusting based on what he's told end users want, or the pressure of working through a backlog of orders for his "classic clad" knives while aiming to fully transition to the stainless clad knives within a year is taking a bit of a toll.

My bet would be on the former.*
 
These are both classic carbon clad knives. As an avid home cook, I have never had issues with the cladding.

Regarding the quality and passion behind Takeda's knives: Ignoring the edge profile, which has too much belly, the quality of the forging on the new knife is far superior imo. It is thicker at the spine, has a great distal taper and thins out from spine to edge. I can echo this for my 240 gyuto as well. The secondary bevel, however, is a bit too obtuse. I have noticed in general that all 3 of my Takeda's have come with the 1200grit finish with no stropping and thus a wire edge. This was somewhat disappointing for me, as the review on zKnives said that his came polished to 4k(ish?) and poppin sharp.

Quantum,
Thanks for the sale. It is a gorgeous knife. The heavy brass spacers help bring the balance back towards the handle just a smidge. Feels nice and gets stuck in my board if I throw its weight around too much. I will be starting a new thread here soon with a semi-guided freehand system I've devised (non-proprietary). While I do enjoy sharpening completely free hand, its nice to have a easier way to get a good convex japanese edge on things.
 
Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.

This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....

Takeda New Profile.jpg
 
Disappointing to hear as I've always wanted one of these laser cleavers. Besides the cck is there another cleaver that comes super thin behind the edge?
 
Hey Dave...if we go back 4-5 years or more, weren't Takeda's hollow or concave grind behind the edge to some degree?
 
Hey Dave...if we go back 4-5 years or more, weren't Takeda's hollow or concave grind behind the edge to some degree?


Yes they were and that was the whole blade and the edge bevel was thin and ground up higher into the hollow. The new grind is almost the exact opposite.
 
Does anybody know if you can specify the old style geometry if you special order direct from Takeda?
 
It's my understanding that he'll do just about any type of custom work you ask for. Go check out Mr.Magnus' custom. Thing looks frickin awesome.
 
Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.

This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....

How would you go about fixing it?


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Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.

This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....

How would you go about fixing it?


The ones I've seen I wouldn't want to try. I can't imagine how you could do this without screwing up the kuroichi finish. The grinding work needs to be so isolated just above the edge and the blade will wobble there as it's sticking out thick. I'm not saying that it can't be done but rather it's going to be messy and a lot of work as well. In my opinion this is a forge issue.
 
I wanted to mention that I dig Takeda's knives, always have, and that I hope that this info gets back to him so that he can re-evaluate what's being put out and get back to making those killer knives we've all come to appreciate so much.
 
His old blades it sounds like were the best flatter profile,drop nose.Convex edge that blends into the side of the blade.I've had old Japan carbon gyuto's like that.They just glide thru foods.I swear by the old style blades Those forgers deff. knew what they were doing.
 
Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.

This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....

I've noticed the same thing, from the pics people have been posting of new Takedas. The first Takeda I owned, which was the "special edition" that one store sold a few years ago, was pretty thick, but even it wasn't as bad as what I've seen recently, in pictures. The other Takedas I owned were older, and had thickened up with use, but it was obvious that they had once been very thin, and it was fairly easy to fix the geometry. I wonder if different craftsmen are finishing them, or if it's just a symptom of making too many knives?
 
ths bevel on my nakiri and then ts now the best cuter that i own. Food release is also excellent with the new grind, and im guessing is a big part od tye reason for changing.
 
going by the drawing, i think i would enjoy the new grind, i don't like the old style takeda but this thicker version seems interesting aside from the horrible profile and being actually too tall.
 
going by the drawing, i think i would enjoy the new grind, i don't like the old style takeda but this thicker version seems interesting aside from the horrible profile and being actually too tall.

it would likely be a wedging machine.
 
This is all very interesting. Dave's first drawing is a very good exaggerated depiction of my Takeda. It is still very thin behind the ege when compared to every knife I see that is owned by a non KKFer. And the release is exceptional.

Is that what is referred to as an "S" grind sometimes?
 
Is that what is referred to as an "S" grind sometimes?

Yes, I suppose it would, but really its just a concave grind/geometry. They have been around for a long time but only recently have people started referring to them as an S grind. I'm not sure where the S thing started, but it's just an name for something that already exists. Since you can't concave/hollow grind a kitchen knife for the entirety of it's blade face, like you could a razor, the middle portion of the blade is hollowed out, either by grinding, forging or other methods. The problem with grinding the entire face hollow, other than needing a very large and specific radius, is being able to maintain the geometry. You wouldn't be able to continue the hollow with a flat stone. So instead a bevel from the hollow to edge is ground. The width and prominence varies. Some are very obvious (Takeda, Heiji, etc) some less so (Marko, Shigefusa, etc). Either way, you can sharpen the knife and maintain it's geometry. The short convex bevel is just part of a concave grind, not a unique feature of some knives requiring a different name.

The only other concave ground knives I can think of that do not have a convex bevel behind the edge are some custom knives made by guys who have no business making kitchen knives; or restaurant house knives, which are basically flat ground and then sharpened/thinned on a machine that grinds both bevels at the same time before they put the final edge bevel on. Neither of these styles are at all effective or discussed here so I don't see the need to distinguish between them and the concave geometries described above. Just as there are effective and ineffective convex geometries there are effective and ineffective concave geometries.

Thus ends my rant against the term "S grind".
 
JMO double bevel from a Katana sword,Cleavers heavy bone to lite veg.,Gyuto's,Machete's,convex rules.
 

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