Knife Sharpening Questions

Hello everyone,

My name is Jon and I'm new to KKF. I have a question about knife sharpening. There are so many videos regarding how to properly sharpen knives. The one that I seem to agree with most are the ones posted by Curtis Chung on Youtube. Now I was wondering, between counting strokes and burr formation, which do you generally go for? I find that if I try to get a burr to form, it takes many strokes on one side and I eventually forget how many strokes I performed. I end up sharpening one side more than the other and feel like the edge starts to get wavy and not flat against the cutting board. Also, when I do the western stroke method, the belly seems to get a burr faster than the tip and the heel. Sorry if this sounds confusing. Please ask if you need clarification. Any help regarding sharpening is GREATLY appreciated! Thanks!

Rather than directly answer your question about counting versus burr, I'd instead go for the Magic Marker Trick. Mr Broida from Japanse Knife Imports has videos showing you how to do this, and it facilitates even bevel sharpening.
[video=youtube;8kzGvtX-h8g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kzGvtX-h8g&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&index=4[/video]

There are many ways to go about it. But a lot of people would say burr formation is essential. Sharpening is also not a mathematical process. So with this in mind, sharpen one side for as long as it takes to get a even consistent burr( yes the tip & heel may take longer and more close attention. then replicate this as close as possible on the second side( assuming your knife is symmetrically ground . You will feel the burr on the second side before you have worked it enough to match the strokes, so because of this going by burr only is a bad idea. Strokes should be counted to some extent but by no means does it need to be exact.
May I also suggest an alternative to the magic marker trick and stop after a few strokes and just look very closely at the edge, different stone grits have different scratch patterns so you should be able to see pretty well where you've sharpened if you train your eye. Although the magic marker trick will make it Easier to see.

Also please note equally as important as burr formation is burr removal or burr abrasion . How do you currently "remove" the burr?? Also note some steel types need extra care on this step, as burr removal on some stainless is rather painful.

So to summarise,for me... it's about creating a burr with as many strokes as it takes, replicating on the other side ( for 50/50 grinds) and then working the higher grit stones to "remove" the burr.

Also, there are many many ways to go about sharpening, but the end result is the same, a consistent , clean , burr free edge of fresh metal.

Don't be afraid to ask lots of questions.

Heels and tips can be tricky for new sharpeners. Inspect the heel to see if there is an upsweep. If so, you will have to lower the handle very slightly or apply more pressure to hit the spot. Tips are the same thing basically. I bring the handle in almost parallel with the stone and lift up the handle with a slight torque. Again , with direct pressure over the spot you are trying to hit.

[video=youtube;dW_sAqpVmug]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW_sAqpVmug&feature=c4-overview&list=UUY7LzKnt-Q59iQz01e10rnw[/video]

Sorry for taking a while to get back to this topic. I have heard of the magic marker trick and for me it seems a little messy having to apply and reapply sharpie especially when wet. I did notice that once I was able to get a burr on the first side of the knife, the second burr would form quite easily and I would stop. In my mind, I feel like I had created a 60/40 or 70/30 bevel. Also during burr formation, the burr would be a lot more pronounced on the belly than the tip and heel. When this happens should I focus on only the tip and heel? I feel that this would create an uneven edge. I'm pretty set on using the western stroke, and with that do you all reccommend that the stroke is edge trailing or edge leading? And as for removing the burr, I would primarily sharpen for a burr on my 500, 700, and 2000 grit stones and polish on my 6000, and 16000 grit stone. I would thn run the knife lightly on a piece of 2x4 and cork. Whew. Sorry for the long post.

Your not actually forming a second burr. Your just flipping the burr over to the other side , this is why you feel the burr faster on the second side.

If your knife is ground 50/50 and you want your edge 50/50 , then you must keep things as consistent as possible. Asymmetric edges are more for japanese knives that are ground asymmetrically , but that is another thing entirely and as you are learning I would recommend learning to sharpen symmetrically first.

I think you need to experiment with different strokes and techniques , and find what works for you... I'm sure the western stroke method works for some people but I see flaws in it. The main one being your left hand is not applying pressure correctly, so you can't focus on all the different parts of the edge. This means the heel and tip get neglected. It sounds like this is your problem, your not actually hitting the heel or tip correctly and that's why you only feel a burr on the belly. Like theory stated, apply pressure over the spot you are trying to hit. You can't do that very well with a big sweeping stroke.

I can highly recomend Jon's videos from JKI, they are brilliant.

Please note that you need to feel a consistent burr from heel to tip, that is the goal. if the belly feels different to the tip and heel your sharpening isn't consistent. You need to do whatever works for you in order to make the burr feel the same, heel tip
I hope this is making sense.

Also I believe, depending on who you talk to, edge leading strokes are for "sharpening" and edge trailing are for polishing/stropping/ deburring the point of a edge trailing stroke is so your not pushing the edge into the mud but pulling it away from it running over the mud making a cleaner edge. This is useful for the polishing stones

jojo33 said:

Sorry for taking a while to get back to this topic. I have heard of the magic marker trick and for me it seems a little messy having to apply and reapply sharpie especially when wet. I did notice that once I was able to get a burr on the first side of the knife, the second burr would form quite easily and I would stop. In my mind, I feel like I had created a 60/40 or 70/30 bevel. Also during burr formation, the burr would be a lot more pronounced on the belly than the tip and heel. When this happens should I focus on only the tip and heel? I feel that this would create an uneven edge. I'm pretty set on using the western stroke, and with that do you all reccommend that the stroke is edge trailing or edge leading? And as for removing the burr, I would primarily sharpen for a burr on my 500, 700, and 2000 grit stones and polish on my 6000, and 16000 grit stone. I would thn run the knife lightly on a piece of 2x4 and cork. Whew. Sorry for the long post.

Click to expand...

You already have an uneven edge, that's why you feel the burr is larger on certain parts. Focus on the other parts to even things out before flipping. Also, why do you sharpen to such a high grit stone?

Thanks everyone for all the tips so far. So I tried sharpening again last night, using the Japanese, sectional approach. I noticed that for this particular technique, I prefer the edge-trailing method. Again, when pulling the knife against the stone, and the edge facing away, I find that this side of the knife doesn't remove as much metal even when a prominent burr results on the other side. Should I practice using the pushing motion, edge facing towards me, using the left (non-dominant) hand holding the knife? I've seen only a couple of these videos, whereas a majority keeps the knife if their dominant (usually right) hand. And Theory, I like the above video, and it got me thinking, when do I use specific grits? I have cheap-ish knives that can cut relatively well, but being me, I like to practice on these knives anyway, so I start with the 500 and move my way up. Also I am a little confused as to what you mean by sharpening to such a high grit stone.

JOJO, a 16000 grit stone is crazy high grit, probably more suited for Razors than kitchen knives. There are no absolutes. This is what i do if:

Kinves that are somewhat sharp:
Try stropping on a high grit stone (8000 range), then with loaded leather follwed by untreated leather. I like horse leather. Maybe three passes on each side on each

Knives that are dull (can run them over your hand without cutting it)
Because the primary bevel is so rounded, you'll have to remove that fatigued metal. This is where you'll want to go to you lower grit stones, sub 1000. Form a burr and work up the stack.

Other more knowledgeable members will be able to add more.

First you need to assess the edge to determine where to start.
Very dull -400k
Still some edge -1k
If you find a burr is not forming easily try a lower grit.
What grit you finish on depends on the use of the knife.
As a pretty over generalised rule:
1k-3k for meat
3k -6k for veg & fish
It helps to visualise what the edge looks like at different grits ,
The lower grit you finish on the more "toothy" your edge is on a microscopic level.
1k looks something like this: vvvvvvvvvvvv
3k : wwwwwwwww
16k: _____________

So the lower the grit the bigger the teeth.
A toothy edge works by severing fibres with a slight slicing action.. like meat, or things like tomatoes that have a skin but soft in centre.
A polished edge is good for push cutting... carrots , onions etc

Also just to confuse you I recently learnt that some stainless steel looses its teeth and becomes overly slick at pretty low grits 2k-4k seems the limit for most stainless... Excluding some new high quality steel types.

So I hope that explains why a 16k grit is completely unnecessary for kitchen knives.

Also it depends how much polish your knife can hold
A cheap knife isn't going to hold much over 1-2k for very long at all.

As for your questions about pushing or pulling & swapping hands ... Try this video .... Or watch all of jons videos
[video=youtube_share;ECfHNBSNOWo]http://youtu.be/ECfHNBSNOWo[/video]

I can't believe I haven't seen that video as of today. Incredibly helpful. My name is also Jon btw haha. I have/use the 16k shapton because it came with the set. I was able to use my blue carbon #2 knife I just sharpened and polished with the 16k and found that it performed quite well with everything I put it against (pork, garlic, onions, and tomatoes). I never used my knife after sharpening on a 1k/2 so I don't know the performance difference. My biggest enemy so far are carrots because every time I cut those, my knife would wedge pretty badly and just slam the cutting board. Could I sharpen to prevent this or is it mainly a knife thickness problem? Also what's the general consensus regarding stone types? Shaptons cut really fast, no soaking required, less messy overall, and traditional water stones seem to be more forgiving because it doesn't cut as fast. One more thing, where can I get a setup like Jon's? Sorry for all the questions. Any answers to any of the questions are greatly appreciated! Definitely getting close to finding my preferred method of sharpening.


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1. counting will not help.

this is based on the supposition that equal pressure will be applied on each side of the knife which is not really an easy task depending on how you hold and apply pressure on blade facing you or edge facing away from you. I tend to have thumb on the blade when the te right side of knife is being abraded( on the stone) and when the left side is on teh stone, only the index finger can be on it. This by itself created diff amount of pressure.

2. Long strokes ( as you term it western strokes) and part by part.. as you term it Japanese style...

You need to be apply both strokes when required.

a) the blade is generally tapered.. thicker at the heel and narrower towards the tip of which i can conclude that the front part will be sufficiently abraded first and the rear portion needs more metal removal to form the burr and thus more strokes will be required. IF you can only use long strokes, the front portion will be worn out pretty fast.

b) Thus abrade where it needs abrading and as mentioned when you have burr along the entire edge.. you are done on that particular side. Its time for the other side then.

c)IF you are concerned that the part by part method will leave uneven parts.. then smoothen it out with the long strokes!

IN brief.. you need to use both strokes or else.. other wise....no fun at all.,,, seriously.. The Japanese too like long and short strokes.

So abrade where is required. I did mention about pressure to be used in response to the Deba Panic post, today, basically lighter pressure when you need to remove less steel towards completion.. IF you only use the same pressure throughout... its no fun and you tend to have flip flop of burrs..

Abrade where you must and do what it takes to a)make 2 angles meet and b)if the edge is thin enough... it will be sharp. over time you will figure what you need to do. Meanwhile as long as you do not mindlessly abrade steel.. you shld get there,


Have fun

d

jojo33 said:

I can't believe I haven't seen that video as of today. Incredibly helpful. My name is also Jon btw haha. I have/use the 16k shapton because it came with the set. I was able to use my blue carbon #2 knife I just sharpened and polished with the 16k and found that it performed quite well with everything I put it against (pork, garlic, onions, and tomatoes). I never used my knife after sharpening on a 1k/2 so I don't know the performance difference. My biggest enemy so far are carrots because every time I cut those, my knife would wedge pretty badly and just slam the cutting board. Could I sharpen to prevent this or is it mainly a knife thickness problem? Also what's the general consensus regarding stone types? Shaptons cut really fast, no soaking required, less messy overall, and traditional water stones seem to be more forgiving because it doesn't cut as fast. One more thing, where can I get a setup like Jon's? Sorry for all the questions. Any answers to any of the questions are greatly appreciated! Definitely getting close to finding my preferred method of sharpening.


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Click to expand...

Your problems with carrots sound like a thickness issue . Appropriate thinning behind the edge should solve this... Jon has a video for that too.. Have you watched them all yet? also should mention your final edge charicterisics can change depending on how long you spend on the stone and the Jump between. E.g jumping from 2k to 16k will not give you a 16k edge, as the jump is so big it won't polish all the teeth out, which is a good thing... As for your questions about which stones, perhaps open another thread titled which stones for me or something like that, I haven't used enough variety to comment.
If by johns setup you mean the sink bridge?
CKTG : chef knives to go has one for about 50, and plenty of other supplies although I'm sure plenty of other places sell this stuff also shouldn't be to hard to find, I think the brand is naniwa

Have just been informed CKTG is not very good .... My apologies

A google search of sink bridge or sharpening supplies will surely bring up other options

I was wondering if anyone had pics of sharpening they've done. Just practiced last night and believe it's the sharpest I've ever made a knife, but the bevel looks wider on some parts. I did the piece-wise approach. Sharpened on 2000 shapton and polished on 6000 king.


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That could just be a wavy grind on the blade face. Where there's a protrusion of steel the bevel will look wider since more material has been removed even though the sharpening angle is consistent. Vice versa when the blade face is overground. The bevel will appear to get smaller.

This is fairly recent , you can clearly see the primary bevel and secondary or thinning behind it.
It takes a while for your wrists to develop the muscle memory necessary to get really even bevels, or it could be as theory said! Hard to say... Practice practice


How sharp are you getting it exactly ?
What are your tests for sharpness?

There, last link didn't work

Sorry for the delay in response. I test sharpness using Murray Carter's three finger test of sharpness, slicing paper and of course cutting vegetables. I appreciate the picture but what I really want to see is the side of the knife because as I've said before, my bevels look pretty wide in some areas.

Just bought a single bevel knife. Hontan Seikon Dojo Usuba blue steel #2 by Kobayashi. Anyone know if this is any good? I've read and understand that you cant maintain the edge with a honing rod, so how do you straighten the edge of a single bevel knife?

As always, thanks for any input.


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This video may help with single bevel sharpening ...
As for touching up your edge you need to do it on the stones.
I don't own any single bevel knives myself so this is more a guess but i would use the stone you finished your sharpening routine on. a few passes on the right hand side followed by light stropping strokes on the left hand 0 degree side.
When this no longer works try moving to a coarser stone followed by the finishing stone .
When that doesn't work sharpen as normal.

[video=youtube_share;gvDjASvVHek]http://youtu.be/gvDjASvVHek[/video]