Think I'm developing a new passion... But need help!

Hi,

I’m a passionate home cook from Quebec City, Canada, and I just joined the forum because i’m looking for a good japanese chef knife in the Gyuto 240mm format. Currently, the knife I use for most of my cutting is a Global G3, and although I like it, I’m looking to upgrade for something bigger (longer and especially wider) that can be sharpened to a much more laser edge. For handle, I prefer a WA but it really is not a deal breaker either way. Don’t really know for balance or blade shape. I use mostly a pinch grip, rocking or slicing motions. Although I feel I’m not yet very good at it, I really like to sharpen on whetstones and am also looking to upgrade my skill. I can easily see sharpening becoming a passion, and for that reason would like a blade I can learn on and will not “outgrow” too fast in terms of sharpening potential, if that makes any sense. Maybe something with harder steel would be better in that sense?

For now, I mostly do my sharpening on a 240/1000 combo Global whetstone, and in addition to the knife, I’m also looking to buy some higher grit stones, as well as a ceramic honing rod. In the last week, I spend an inordinate amount of time reading on various internet forums about what to buy and where, and in the end, I’ve decided it would be better for me to invest a little less on the knife than I originally thought, and more on the sharpening kit. What’s the point in having an incredible blade if I can’t bring it to full potential?

I take great care of my knives (I’d even say I’m a little obsessed with that), and got a budget planned for a maple cutting board to replace the cheap plastic ones I’m currently using. I would not mind the extra care of carbon steel if it means a sharper and easier/funnier to sharpen blade. I have had a carbon steel blade in the past and didn’t in any way find it a problem to maintain. Though I can’t say I necessarily like the “dull” look of some carbon steel blade I’ve seen on the Web (Moritaka comes to mind). I for example love the patina I’ve seen on the Hirimoto AS.

From what I’ve read, I think I’ll buy from JCK for the cheap shipping and reported fast shipping. Other choice would be from a Canadian stores to keep the shipping and customs down.

Here’s what I currently have it narrowed to (aimed budget is around 250$ total, though I could stretch up to 300$) :

Knife choice from JCK that falls in my budget :
Hiromoto AS (161$)
Kagayaki Carbonext KC-6 (128$)
Kagayaki Basic KG-7 (115$)
JCK Inazuma IN-5 Wa Gyuto (139$) - Cosmetically, I really LOVE that knife! But look is not as high as blade potential in my priority list.
Shiki SC-7 (154$)

From Canadian stores :
Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef (170$)
Sakai Takayuki Damascus 17 or 45 (respectively 158$ and 154$)
Tojiro DP (100$)
Tojiro powdered steel (150$)
Masakage Mizu (185$)

Finaly, this is a stretch to my budget but I do find the CKtG Kohetsu AS 240mm Gyuto very interesting and maybe worth the shipping/custum hassle (170$+30$ shipping + custum).

That’s a lot of different knives but oh well. Seems I’m really not decided yet...

As for sharpening stone, I was wondering what kind of progression would be best from my 1000. I was thinking along the line of the JCK 6000/10000 but was wondering if the jump from 1000 to 6000 is too much?

Well, that’s it for now. Pretty long first post... Thanks for making it to the end and for the incoming advices!

Phil

Amazing knife for the price

I think that as you want a knife to use on a honing rod... And you liked the look of it. The inazuma wa gyuto would be a good choice.

No 1k - 6k is not too big of a jump. Alot of people use that progression. If you use too many stones in a progression that are close together in grit size you may polish out the toothyness achieved on the 1k.
note that anything over 6k is considered unnecessary for kitchen use as the edge may not have enough bite to it.

Also note that ceramic rods range from (roughly)1k- 3k
So to an extent thats what your edge will be regardless of the finishing stone, if you choose to maintain your edge by ceramic hone.

Also don't get too hung up on buying a knife for "ultimate edge taking " qualities . I think "sharpness" has everything to do with how you sharpen . And only a little to do with the knife itself.

It can be tough here in Canada, to find a good selection. Send me an email if you want to get into Canadian options a bit more in depth.

Welcome aboard, Phil!

Since you do use rock as well as slice motions, look for a profile that has some curve or belly towards the tip. I think you're fine on that count with the knives you're looking at (just from memory anyways), but for now you may want to stay away from really flat profiles like you find on the Masamotos and kiritsuke gyutos.

JCK is good with shipping. Their packages don't scream "commercial product!" so chances are it'll slip through Customs without tax & duty. I find that Customs doesn't sample as many packages coming in from overseas as they do packages coming in from the USA. JCK's also good with Customs documentation.

I haven't tried Japanese Natural Stone's Itinomonn gyutos, but the geometry and feel on the santokus and nakiris in that line are really, really nice and I know those small guys are pretty economical.

Paul's Finest in Canada has been good for me in the past. Haven't tried those particular Sakai Takayuki knives you've listed, but they're solid choices from what I gather.

Knifewear for the Masakage should be good. Haven't ordered from them before, but got a Masakage gyuto second-hand that is really well made and nice to use.

The Tojiro DP knives aren't what they used to be from what I gather. Maybe one of the guys here knows more detail about that. From what I recall, they changed the steel they're using and the final product is not as nice as what they used to use.

Tosho Knife Arts in Toronto also has a good selection that keeps expanding. They're good folks there too.

You've actually got a fair amount of choice within Canada and with cheap-shipping sources online

echerub what Masakage do you have?

What's the AS KU one? Koishi?

Yes with a tsuchime finish

I got a brand new Masakage Yuki

How's the Yuki shaping up? Might be another option for Phil to consider

well looks wise it is a beauty the fit and finish is impeccable the Kurouichi if you even want to call it that I don't know what else you call it is very subtle but also give the knife a lot of character...use wise I haven't had the need to even use it never had a good opportunity to tell you the truth at least not where I am working now will break it out as soon as the new restaurant opens up

I believe the Yuki line has a nashiji ("pear skin") finish.

Thanks for the help todd forgot what it was called thanks

Wow. That’s a lo of feedback in a short time. Thanks. I’ll try to answer everyone :

Otoro : the Akifusa is a really beautiful knife, and it was the kind of blade I was looking for before I decided to keep a bigger part of my budget on sharpening gear. If I’m not mistaken, it is the same as the Haruyuki SRS-15 which sells for 269$ at knifewear here in Canada? This is unfortunately too expensive for me right now.

Geo, not sure I understand what you mean by “as you want a knife to use on a honing rod”? I don’t necessarily want a knife to use on a honing rod, but I thought it was good practice to use one before and after every use. From your message, I feel that the ceramic rod might not be the best option to maintain an edge. Should I rather get a borosilicate rod (which seems pretty hard to find though)? Or would it be best if I maintained my blade on a fine strop? I don’t mind the last option if it is the best, but I certainly would not be using it every time I use the blade as I would a rod. Would not mind using it once or twice a week. And I hear you on the importance of sharpening over that of the blade, this is why I decided to go for a cheaper blade and invest more in sharpening gear. I’m probably overthinking the whole thing, but I like making informed decisions.

Thanks Echerub for the roundup of Canadian options. They pretty much are those I was looking at, in addition to Grace in the Kitchen, which do not seem to come up often though. For Tojiro, the reviews I found were effectively not necessarily all positive. I kept it in my choices because of the low price. As for Masakage, I did a little more research, and they really have interesting lines. My favorite are the clad ones (Koishi and Yuki) but both are too expensive. Thus the Mizu in my short list. I really like the fact they are all handmade, and the WA handle. Was it not for its higher price compared to the rest of my list and the fact I still have a bit of apprehension about full carbon steel rust, patina, high hardness chipping (at the same time I’m attracted by it), the Mizu would be at the top of my list. Another I’ve found that could prove interesting is Knifewear’s Tadafusa Nashiji with a #2 Aogami core clad in stainless for 165$. Problem is I couldn’t find a whole lot of info about it.

Thanks again for the help and keep them coming. I’d like to make a decision pretty soon since I have a sushi party coming and I’d like to have the new knife by then .

Phil

Hey phil,

Sorry ill explain more, some knives just aren't suitable to maintain on honing rods for a number of reasons . Some the steel is too hard, or too thin behind the edge. Honing these on a rod would result in chipping as rods exert alot of forces on a your edge. Stropping on various mediums or 'touching up' on a Stone would be the recommended method for most j knives as it distributes the forces better which is much nicer to your edges .

It sounds harder but it really isn't... I literally touch up and or strop my knives at work at the start of every shift. It's a nice ritual
By touch up I mean a few sweeping edge trailing (stropping) strokes on a dry finishing stone. 3-6 strokes usually does it .

Here's a good video about it.
All of jons videos are brilliant [video=youtube_share;FStkYx0AH1Y]http://youtu.be/FStkYx0AH1Y[/video]

Hi Geo,

thanks for the video. I'll make sure to check the other ones also. You got me interested with the "dry finishing stone". I may be wrong, but it does not seem to me as much a hassle to take out everytime than a whole stropping system or a super high grit whetstone. But I never stumbled upon such a dry stone in my research. Could you point me out to an example?

Thanks

All I ment by dry stone was any finishing stone without water on it... So this could be your 6k stone .

Ok, great. So if I summarize, what you mean is I could maintain my blade better by gently stropping on my dry finishing stone instead of using a ceramic rod. If I'm willing to do that (which I totally am), that would mean you just saved me the purchase of a ceramic rod... Great! In the end, in regards to sharpening and blade maintenance, I could only get a 6K stone (in addition to my 240/1000 combo) and be done with it? Would any kind of stropping gear down the line help refine the blade in any way? Or am I again overthinking it?

Thanks

There are other options for stropping/honing, but using your finest stone will do the job a-ok

It ought to be easier to maintain a consistent angle on a stone than it would be on a honing rod, which makes it a better way to do it unless you're in a very time-strapped production environment. Whipping out your stone is plenty fast in anything other than the tightest of time constraints

Yes that's exactly it. If you already have a 220/1k stone the addition of a 6k stone would be perfect. If your after convenience 'splash & go' stones are very convenient . Just a touch of water on the surface that's it.

As for further refinement it really isn't necessary however if its something you want to play around with there are a lot of cheap alternatives. A lot of members here also build their own strops by fixing leather to wood. Cheap alternatives ... Newspaper, cardboard , Manila folder, jeans ... I think you can even use some green paint to make a chronium oxide strop... Not sure on the specifics .


Or if you aren't handy I believe dave sells strops

Ok. Back to knife selection, I’ve checked it all again and bring it down to five knives. Here are currently my pro and cons :

Hiromoto AS (161$) :
+ Aogami super core
+ Stainless clad.
+ Beautiful kenji
- YO handle
- Read about fit and finish not top

Kagayaki Carbonext KC-6 ES (140$)
+ Carbonext : a good compromise between SS and CS?
+ Great value, price
+ Read great thing about knife performance
+ ES (extra sharp) version sharp right out of the box
- YO handle
- Look in general

Masakage Mizu (185$)
+ All carbon steel (I’m attracted to it, feels “noble”). What’s the difference between Aogami super and #2 blue?
+ Looks great
+ A little bit bigger than the others
+ Handmade
+ Looks great
+ Wa Handle
+ Seems they are very sharp out of the box
- All carbon steel (a little bit intimidated by it)
- This is a big minus : most expensive of the bunch

Tadafusa Nashiji (165$)
+ Aogami #2 blue
+ Stainless clad.
+ 210mm looks great
+ WA handle
- Not a lot of info on it. Only place it seems in stock is at Knifewear and they got no picture of it.

I’m very tempted by the Masakage but would probably go over my budget if I do so. If everyone tells me it really is a better blade and not to worry about the all carbon, I will probably do the jump. If I’d get as much from the other blade, I’ll go with my bank account...

The Hiromoto and Tadefusa are kind of on a same level : both are clad carbon steel, price is similar. I prefer the WA handle of Tadefusa, but Hiromoto seems a more established blade, with a lot of great reviews (though the FF review is kind of worrying). Maybe the steel can separate them : Aogami super VS Aogami blue #2. Is one clearly better than the other?

Finally, the Carbonext is the one I’m not really sure what to think about. I like the low price and the fact it is on sale. A lot of reviews seems to suggest it is a much better blade than its price suggest. Maybe the best value of the four? Look is about on par with Hiromoto, and I’d prefer the WA handle and look of both others. Will it develop a patina? Anyway, if the hybrid between SS and CS is as incredible as some reviewers say, this may just be the ticket.

If anyone wants to chime in and help me narrow down my choices further, I think I may be able to make a decision as soon as tomorrow.

Thanks

Phil

Well, I finally spoke with Kevin at Knifewear today about my dilemma. What a nice, courteous, helpful and honest dude. To make a long story short, at first, he was guiding me towards the Tadafusa as an incredible deal for my budget. But after a couple of emails, I finally decided to stretch the initial budget and go with the Masakage Yuki. The knife shipped today... I'll make sure to keep you all updated when it comes home.

Thanks to all who have helped, it's really made the difference in my choice. I've just said it in another thread but it's the kind of thing that are worth repeating : this is really a great community. Honored to now be a part of it.