What to buy next... Nakiri or...

Hobbiest with the following knives:

1) Mac stamped blade 8"
2) Global G-2
3) japanese handmade from japan 8"
4) Chai dao (Wusthof)
5) 2 pairing (victorinox)
6) Bread, slicing, etc...
7) 10" Mundial chef (beater)

I was drawn to the Chai dao due to the wide blade for prep work; however, the aggressive curve of the blade isn't ideal for me. I sometimes get vegetables partially cut through (certainly can be technique more than the knife...).

So my b-day is next week, and my wife wants to get me something. I recently came across this board, and thought I'd ask for ideas. I was leaning toward a 10" wide Wusthof Chef b/c it's nice to cut onions, smash garlic (something I'd never do with my global, mac or J-knife) and then break down a chicken. When I found the Nakiri's, it seemed to solve my issue with the Chai dao, but I don't think I'd want to break down chicken spine with a Nakiri.

Then I saw this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YKRnv0aq-8

Don't know what kind of knife it is, but if I already have a thin Global, Mac, and jknife, do I really need a Nakiri? Maybe a utility/prepper knife like the above is something I'd get more use out of... Still can't break down chicken spine with this...

What are your guys thoughts? Is there a knife that can do it all? Break down chicken, smash garlic and then brunoise a carrot? The 10" wide Wusthof might be the best, but the wide blade would feel sluggish going through vegetables. On the other hand, the Nakiri would smash garlic, breeze through vegetables but not break down chicken backs. The prepper/utility wouldn't break down chicken, but maybe I'd grab for this for prep vs my Mac and Global??? The Nakiri might be too similary to the Mac and Global...

Hell, maybe I'm over thinking things and I should just buy one of the knives. Worse comes to worse, I can always sell it used. Thoughts are appreciated though. Thanks!



Cooks Illustrated rated the Mac Nakiri their favorite (I understand they only review commercial knives, and not handmade) and it runs for < $90.

I went to a knife shop here in San Francisco, and got to try out a few Nakiri's, and my favorite was the Kono HD (http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/kohdna18.html). So sharp, and cut through carrots like a hot knife through butter. The blade was so sharp, when I tried to rock the knife (I know, it's designed for up & down), the blade tip would actually stick in the board. Maybe some of the other Nakiri's just needed some slight sharpening? The Kono is a beautiful knife, but is it 2x better than the MAC?

I was leaning toward a 10" wide Wusthof Chef b/c it's nice to cut onions, smash garlic (something I'd never do with my global, mac or J-knife) and then break down a chicken.

Welcome ELM to the forum. A Nakiri is a vegetable prep knife, about the only knife that is generally agreed to be an All Rounder is maybe a Chinese clever. CCK is a great brand if your willing to spend some time tweaking the edge.

Welcome to the forum. Sense you didn't specify preferences in handle type or blade materials I'm going assume you like western style handles and stainless steel. I love nakiris but they are strictly for veggies and of no use for anything else. For general purposes...

This http://www.cutleryandmore.com/miyabi-7000-mc/microcarbide-chefs-knife-p115045
or
this http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#TJ-20AS (scroll down for larger blade lengths)

AND

This http://japanesechefsknife.com/Page4.html#TJ-65G3 (for your chickens-nothing does it all).


Be well,
Mikey

And remember, even with the very best knives, it takes YEARS of practice to develop the skills you were watching.

Those ideas are very interesting. I was looking at a Chinese cleaver, and have to say, it looks like a great blade. I had a miyabi, and didn't love the knife. It's heavy, and didn't cut (IMHO) as well as my Global. That Kono is still on my mind. It barely took any effort to whiz through a carrot... It's really nice to try before buying. As for steels, my one carbon is reactive, which is okay (even with a patina), but I don't notice a dramatic difference between edge retention or sharpness between this and my global. I understand the blue, white, and HD steels have pluses and minuses, but none are far superior over the others, correct? The motivation to get a custom blade is the blade quality, supporting an artisan, and the "cool" factor of having something original. I don't mind a japanese handle (vs Western), but I am NOT leaning toward a deba (90+ degree?) blade. I want 16-degrees or greater, double bevel, or maybe 70/30. I understand single bevel are a pain to sharpen, and I'm not going to be making sushi sheets out of daikon radishes anytime soon!

I think I might just pick up a $20 chinese cleaver to see how I like it. If I understand correctly, it's not as fine as a nakiri. This way I can smash garlic if I want to. Can I smash garlic w/ a nakiri? Can I cut through steak (no bones) with a nakiri? Will a nakiri be too brittle to cut through butternut squash?

Only other idea(s) is a petty knife. Don't know which one I'd use more. Sometimes when I'm cutting tomatoes, the pairing knife is too small, but the chef knives are a bit too big. I have a boning knife I can use, but don't use it too much as I don't have much knuckle clearance - one of my concerns of some petty knives. Any ideas on this front are welcome, as are any other ideas I've might have missed.

Lasty - for my b-day, maybe I'll just ask the mrs to get me some sharpening stones. I'm thinking of a 1k/6k combo kit. Between that and my spyderco sharpmaker, I might be in good shape. Who knows, maybe I'll get a <$20.00 cleaver, the $90.00 MAC Nakiri, try them both and dump one if I don't like it, or upgrade down the road if I love it/them.

Looking forward to learning more and thanks!

-Joel

Joel, The questions your asking cannot be answered unless your willing to make compromises. There is no knife that can perform equally well on all kitchen tasks and kitchen ingredients. This is a good think, its another reason to buy more knives. HA

Chinese Clever is cool, but somehow doesn't inspire as much as a well made Gyuto. IMHO. I the past four years i've bought and sold many knives: Takeda, Kono, Moritaka, Tadasuna, Yusuke, Ichimongi... I used to be into Japanese Kuruchi knives, fell in love with Lasers, had a very nice 300 Yanagiba--Blue, 210 Usuba Blue and 195 Deba Blue.

Sold them all and the only single bevel knife I have is the Deba, and still rarely use it as I'm not processing a lot of while fish, works great for chicken (regardless of what others say).Sounds cool at first thinking seems logical to use a Yanagiba to slice coked meats. You'll be frustrated. I've sold all of these knives in favor of knives that I'll grab for and most of the time its a Gyuto.


Nakiri is the only Kuruchi knife I have. Still use it for mies but with a righteous Gyuto and proper technique, you'll never need for want.

The gyuto/chef knife is the ultimate 'all rounder' for me, although ive yet to try a chinese cleaver (next on my hit list perhaps..). I had a konosuke hd 240 gyuto and I loved the performance. Ive sinced gone to a 270 suisin honyaki (I prefer larger knives) and have a masamoto ks laying around too (im supposedly trying to figure out which knives "suit" me and my work more). Admittedly, I wouldnt bust open a chicken or anything with either of these though as they are incredibly thin at the edge. For me, I figure if I have a durable knife for heavy work I can use a thin edge and appreciate the performance for my more delicate stuff.

For that shape blade you just need to experiment and figure out for yourself what you like/will want to use. For me, a nakiri is usually too small though that's my fault because of the ones I've tried. I have a CCK 11xx series (fairly large) cleaver that gets used in rotation with my gyuto's and wouldn't be without it. You should be able to smash garlic with all but the most fragile knives. As to gliding through the carrot, any thin gyuto that is properly sharpened should cut a carrot with ease. Some people don't mind a bit of wedging here though in a tradeoff for a bit more blade thickness to add some convexity for release.

I would suggest trying a few more gyuto's to see what you really like. Nail down the profile and geometry you prefer and get situated with a chef's knife (or 5) that you really like and then fill in some of the missing links. I think a petty makes sense if you like/need something between a parer and chef, cleaver/nakiri if you think you'll use it; though think of that as substituting for your chef's knife.

Great idea in trying a water stone to ween yourself from the sharpmaker, you'll never look back. I think I may suggest buying a nice 1-2k stone initially as it will work with your current knives. As you add some nicer gyuto's to the mix you can add another stone in the 5-6k range. That said, a combo stone will work just fine now and later if you so choose.

If you're gonna go a combo stone, I would prefer a coarse stone with a 1k stone. A coarse stone would make easier work of the global and is capable of repair work or thinning

Great ideas all - thanks!

1) Is a gyuto going to be that much different in performance than my Mac and Global?
2) If I get stones, should I consider getting a courser stone than 1k?


That Kono HD nakiri blade was beautiful. That said, I understand that of the other 3-4 Nakiri blades I tried, it isn't necessarily the knife that's better, but maybe some of the other knives could have been a bit sharper.

I think Chinacats hit the nail on the head with trying to try out a few more knives, and I need to include gyuto's to try.

So with your guys suggestions, maybe I look at at Kono Gyuto! I'd have the blade I love, with perhaps more versatility than the nakiri. Still can't smash garlic, but than again, if I AM breaking down chicken at home, I typically have out my pairing knife for something small, my 8" Calphalon beater for spin removal and smashing garlic, and then one of my J-Knives out for veg prep. So maybe the Chinese Clever would do everything, although de-ribbing peppers might be interesting with such a wide blade!

The Nakiri idea came from me getting the Chai dao, and wanting a wider blade for scooping up onions and other prep items. So here are my thoughts for gifts for myself, keeping the budget around +/- $175 (hey, it's my b-day!):

1) Chinese Cleaver < $20 + Mac Nakiri + 1K stone + 2K stone (or 1k/6k combo)
2) Kono HD Gyuoto (Whoops - this might be after bonus time! Just checked and realized these babies start at $250+! This one is a beauty: http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/kohdkigy24we.html)
3) Kono HD Nakiri
4) 1 knife < $100 + Michelin dinner w/ the Mrs. (Note: Open to ideas on gyuto. Otherwise, the Mac nakiri might be the start point)
5) 2-3 stones (1k+2k+6k might be good) + Michelin dinner with the Mrs

Have a great weekend all!

elmsley4 said:

... maybe I look at at Kono Gyuto! I'd have the blade I love, with perhaps more versatility than the nakiri. Still can't smash garlic ...

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You don't need a heavy knife to smash garlic. Put the garlic clove on the board, place the knife on it, and hit the blade with the heel of your hand.

Pensacola Tiger said:

You don't need a heavy knife to smash garlic. Put the garlic clove on the board, place the knife on it, and hit the blade with the heel of your hand.

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Also if you like put a pinch of salt on the garlic befor you smash, the salt will suck up all those nice garlic juices and help grind it.

Performance will differ between every gyuto, chef knife and every other knife out there. The kono hd is a great knife in that it is so light and thin, relatively stainless and will take to sharpening easily. Globals by comparison will be a lot harder to sharpen as they are thicker (lots more grinding required) and made up of a tougher alloy. You would lose performance if you ground the global to the thinness say that of the konosuke (not to mention a lot of time) as the edge would seriously deform. Globals don't take to higher polishes as well either.

In a nutshell, that konosuke should blow away your current knives, provided that you treat it nicely. If you were to get one, I would hold off the coarse stone treatment for a long while until you have become more proficient with a 1k stone. It should be thin enough already, a 1k stone or even a 5kish stone would be ideal for keeping it touched up.

All that aside, you need to be able to justify whether you can fork out for the kono plus the necessary stones. You can still buy great knives (albeit maybe "less great" than the kono) for cheaper, which would then allow you to buy good stones for practice. For example, I usually recommend victorinox to apprentice chefs as they are cheap and conveniently thin already. With a coarse and a 1k stone, they can teach themselves how to sharpen without the pressure of trashing an expensive blade. From there, they can decide whether they are happy enough with their purchase or if they want something special. If you want something between a victorinox and konosuke, there are so many options out there but I think the hiromotos are probably among the best valued purchases

Pensacola Tiger said:

You don't need a heavy knife to smash garlic. Put the garlic clove on the board, place the knife on it, and hit the blade with the heel of your hand.

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I'm so anal with my blades (and at this point, the Global is my nicest), that I wasn't sure if I could use my Global to smash the garlic. I was always anxious of the thin blade chipping. If it's no problem, can I do the same with a Jknife???

Thanks!

Totally. FWIW my first j knife was a 210mm Gesshin Ginga in white carbon steel and it popped my proverbial cherry for what good knives are all about. I have a nakiri and two gyutos and think your money is best spent on a good gyuto.

Thanks for the ideas!

I do love my Global. When I got it, it cut through onions like a dream. That's why I bought the minosharp specifically for the Global - to keep it as sharp as possible. I'm actually curious if I can use a stone on the Global, b/c the Global is more of a convex design vs a flat grind, correct? My jknife my brother got me japan is beautiful, but the spine is rather thick and while I like it a lot, I'm interested in trying other blades.

I'm also curious if a gyuto is going to be that much different than my Global. I was looking also at a honesuke to use as a combo for breaking down birds AND a petty, but when I learned most (if not all?) of honesuke's were single bevel, I disregarded this idea. Again, I'm a hobbyist - not a professional, I just like using nice things that make my life easier. I use a Wustof boning knife to break down chicken now, which is perfectly agreeable. I wish I had more clearance under my fingers for mincing and dicing, but I switch off to a chef knife to do this. A lot of petty's I've seen don't have a lot of knuckle clearance either, but I need to do more looking. So in summary:

1) The kono HD blades are amazing. I want one, but don't know if I want to spend the $ now.
2) To save some cash, how much better will the Kono HD Nakiri be over the Mac Nakiri? Assuming I want to try out a Nakiri for 1/2 price.
3) I'm going to look into the hiromoto gyuto's, petty's and nakiri's. Will I tell a big difference over my Global and Mac?
4) I'm going to take a class on japanese knife sharpening and then pick up a couple stones or combo stone. I think the 1k/6k might be fine from what I've read.

Thanks again!

As for practicing on some stones, I couldn't agree with you more. Fortunately, I have a Calphalon 8" chef, a 10" Mundial and an 8" $15.00 Bed Bath Beyond blade I can practice on all day. I wouldn't dream of taking any of my jknives (let alone a kono or hiromoto) until I really feel confident. My uncle is a professor in the culinary department at Michigan State, and he was showing me how to sharpen an old SS Sabitier on a water stone. It was definitely a bit sharper, but the blade was scratched up quite a bit. I am definitely not looking to repeat this on MY knives.

Your uncle probably thinned your blade in addition to sharpening. If you don't like the scratches then you can sand them out but thinning is a necessary part of sharpening any knife.
Cheers

You don't need 1k and 2k stones. I have 1200 & 6k and that gap is fine.

chinacats said:

Your uncle probably thinned your blade in addition to sharpening. If you don't like the scratches then you can sand them out but thinning is a necessary part of sharpening any knife.
Cheers

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What grit of sandpaper would you recommend for this purpose? Any particular technique?

Frater_Decus said:

What grit of sandpaper would you recommend for this purpose? Any particular technique?

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depends what grit you use to thin your knife with usually. for instance, if you thin with a 220 grit stone or plate, youre going to want to start with a similar grit sand paper to cover up the scratch pattern. and then work your way up a sand paper progression. i usually use 80,150,400,800 then micro mesh pads.
i prefer to go from choil to tip instead of spine to edge, because its quicker for me.

labor of love said:

depends what grit you use to thin your knife with usually. for instance, if you thin with a 220 grit stone or plate, youre going to want to start with a similar grit sand paper to cover up the scratch pattern. and then work your way up a sand paper progression. i usually use 80,150,400,800 then micro mesh pads.
i prefer to go from choil to tip instead of spine to edge, because its quicker for me.

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Awesome, I'll be giving that a shot on my Grand Chef Wa. The satin finish that came on the blade is really easily scuffed, so I've been looking for a way to give it a uniform finish again. I definitely learned what NOT to use a finishing stone for, in the meantime!

Tell me this, is my Global and Mac different than a gyuto? What differences will I notice?

Also - I was watching a youtube video of a guy sharpening his pocket knife (I have a couple nice Spyderco's), and he used a hand sander to buff his pocket knife to a mirror finish. Any thoughts on this for a chef knife?

Thanks!

elmsley4 said:

Tell me this, is my Global and Mac different than a gyuto? What differences will I notice?

Also - I was watching a youtube video of a guy sharpening his pocket knife (I have a couple nice Spyderco's), and he used a hand sander to buff his pocket knife to a mirror finish. Any thoughts on this for a chef knife?

Thanks!

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A gyuto is a Japanese chef's knife, so if your Global and Mac are both chef's knives then by definition they are gyuto's. I have no thoughts/clue about a hand sander or a mirror polish...:dontknow: