I have a Kanemasa e-series honesuki currently, made of sk-4 steel. The F&F is great, but the steel is underwhelming. I like to run something like a 10-15 degree angle per side, and I can only get through 5 or 6 chickens before the edge starts to degrade. So I'm looking for a better quality steel. I'm looking at aogami super; perhaps the takeda or masakage. Though in my browsing, I found the Blazen (Bu-Rei-Zen) on EE, which is made of SG-2. I would prefer the carbon steel for ease of sharpening and ultimate sharpness, and I like the idea of AS for edge retention. Though my wife has SG-2 in her Shun Kaji knives, and they get very sharp and hold it for a very long time. So...do I buy the Takeda? Or do you all have other recommendations?
Looking for a new honesuki
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chefcomesback
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Welcome to forum Haakan , as you are describing 15 degrees per side I guess you are looking for double bevel honesuki rather than traditional one. Other than the ones you mentioned there is double bevel Ryusen on epic edge. It is vg10 but AFAIK it is done by Hattori and he knows his vg10
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IN your quest , a valid consideration will be the ease of maintenance and clean up esp for chickens ( salmonella) for which I prefer stainless steel and western handle as opposed to Wa handles where chicken blood, small pieces can get to the wood or the front of the ferule
My personal choice is the bigger version, Garasaki made by Ashi Hamono, Ginga series ( 5mm at the spine)..Swedish Steel
Good luck and have fun
rgds
d
My personal choice is the bigger version, Garasaki made by Ashi Hamono, Ginga series ( 5mm at the spine)..Swedish Steel
Good luck and have fun
rgds
d
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Not sure whether a harder steel is the solution. SK-4 is relatively tough IIRC and appropriate. A microbevel might help.
I have no preference either way for single or double bevel. I want a knife that will get very sharp, and keep that sharpness for a long time. I saw the Ryusen also. Do you know how the vg-10 compares to sg-2?
That's a good point concerning sanitation. A western handle seems less susceptible to contamination. I searched for the garasuki, but could not find it. Do you have a link? And are there any western handled knives in Aogami Super?
I like the looks of the Kochi, and it's cheaper than the ones I was looking at. I see it's made of V2 steel, similar in composition to white steel, but with added Cr. Do you know how it compares in performance? And is it worth the upgrade to Aogami Super?
I tend to agree. I don't necessarily think it's the steel that's at issue. SK4 should be able to hold up to a half dozen birds without significant edge degradation. The honesuke should be set up with a fairly obtuse, tough edge. I couldn't tell you the exact bevel on any of mine, but it's substantially more obtuse than what you've described. I can knock through a case of birds without slowing. You might go back and apply a microbevel or rework your edge to make it tougher. I suspect that if you do that, you'll get more of the kind of performance that you're after.
That said, if you're set on picking up something new, I think the Tojiro DP is by far the best bang for the buck out there. Quality steel, tough, and cheap. I also have a Kikuichi VG10, which has proven to be a great performer, but it was also three times the price. Aside from some minor differences in fit and finish, functionally, they compare very favorably. When it comes down to it, I don't think there's anything out there that can touch the Tojiro for straight up performance at that price.
That said, if you're set on picking up something new, I think the Tojiro DP is by far the best bang for the buck out there. Quality steel, tough, and cheap. I also have a Kikuichi VG10, which has proven to be a great performer, but it was also three times the price. Aside from some minor differences in fit and finish, functionally, they compare very favorably. When it comes down to it, I don't think there's anything out there that can touch the Tojiro for straight up performance at that price.
So is 10 degrees per side too acute? I had assumed the steel had poor edge retention. With a freshly sharpened edge, cutting through chicken skin is like butter, then after half a case it loses that quality, and I have to start sawing more at it rather than just gliding through. Is this "like butter" kind of sharpness an unrealistic expectation? Or will a better steel be able to go brought a couple cases while holding that edge?
For a butchering knife, IMHO I'd say ten degrees per side is a bit aggressive. It's a blade that by definition is used in a more rough and tumble manner. Gliding against bones, cutting through ribs, etc. Putting a more obtuse, tougher edge on it will probably help quite a bit. You might also consider how your sharpening lineup affects it as well. What's your sharpening regime? Do you leave a lower grit, toothy edge or go high polish?
I have been using, unlike most, a set of oilstones. I have a norton 3-sided contraption (IM-313 is the model) along with a hard translucent Arkansas to finish. I take the honesuki all the way through to the hard translucent, so, a polished finish.
Breaking down chickens doesn't, at least how we use them at my work, involve going through bone, you just cut through the cartilage. I imagine its a lot less hard on the edge, which is my reason for having such an acute edge.
Breaking down chickens doesn't, at least how we use them at my work, involve going through bone, you just cut through the cartilage. I imagine its a lot less hard on the edge, which is my reason for having such an acute edge.
Hbeernink
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The kochi does just fine - it's sharp, and holds it long enough. I don't bang it against bones if I can help it, and it holds up reasonably well. I bought my kochi honesuki from Jon, and I find the chestnut handle to be a bit bigger than what you might expect but it works really well with this knife. Neither misono nor kochi are at the top end of the knife ladder, but both are solid performers.
The sharpest Honesukis are going to be single bevel. The Hattori KF and Gesshin Heiji are examples. To increase the strength of the edge, a lot of Honesukis are double edged. The edge is ground with a bias, around 80/20. Honesuki's ground with a 50/50 edge are going to be the most durable, but not quite as sharp as the single bevel or biased edge.
Garasukis depending on the maker, can be an enlarged Honesuki's single bevel or double edged. Other makers, lengthen the pattern, while keeping the width on the narrow side. The right hand side is heavily biased, similar to a single bevel knife. It's as probably close to being a single bevel, while still being double edged. The Masamoto is a good example.
A number of members have commented how well their Debas break down chicken. Take that single edged knife, put it into a pattern more suitable for working with chicken, and you have got a Garasuki.
The Massamoto feels like a knife that is meant to break down and debone chickens all day, with out much difficulty. It would take more effort for a Honesuki to keep up with a Garasuki.
The Takeda Honesuki is too close in price to the Masamoto Garasuki. With Korin's sale, the Massamoto is cheaper then the Takeda.
The ultimate knife would be the Gesshin Heiji 180mm Honesuki. It has the size of a Garasuki and probably the weight. The steel is highly regarded, easy to sharpen, with good edge retention.
Jay
Garasukis depending on the maker, can be an enlarged Honesuki's single bevel or double edged. Other makers, lengthen the pattern, while keeping the width on the narrow side. The right hand side is heavily biased, similar to a single bevel knife. It's as probably close to being a single bevel, while still being double edged. The Masamoto is a good example.
A number of members have commented how well their Debas break down chicken. Take that single edged knife, put it into a pattern more suitable for working with chicken, and you have got a Garasuki.
The Massamoto feels like a knife that is meant to break down and debone chickens all day, with out much difficulty. It would take more effort for a Honesuki to keep up with a Garasuki.
The Takeda Honesuki is too close in price to the Masamoto Garasuki. With Korin's sale, the Massamoto is cheaper then the Takeda.
The ultimate knife would be the Gesshin Heiji 180mm Honesuki. It has the size of a Garasuki and probably the weight. The steel is highly regarded, easy to sharpen, with good edge retention.
Jay
If it was me, I'd talk to Marko.
did i say this? This is not the case at all... there are many kinds of honesuki... the highly asymmetrical are by far the most common... 50/50 and true single bevels exist too, but in much less quantity
You may be confusing honesuki and kiritsuke
What is it that makes the single bevel sharpest? Isn't the inclusive angle the important part? As in, a blade with 10 deg on one side and 0 deg on the other is a single bevel with 10 deg inclusive. A double bevel blade with 10 deg per side has a 20deg inclusive angle. The single bevel will be sharper, because it has a more acute inclusive angle. This being the case, why would an 80/20 double bevel be sharper than a 50/50, and related to this, why is he 50/50 a more durable edge?
brainsausage
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It has more to back it up. A single bevel lacks the strength of a double bevel based on pure physics. The force is distributed differentially with a double bevel, where a single has the majority of the strain imparted upon a smaller area. Not to mention that it's primarily a finer edge to begin with. And if you bring a true single bevel with ura into the equation?
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But they don't have the same inclusive angle.
What I mean is, in a hypothetical situation where you have two knives, one double bevel and one single, where they both have the same inclusive angle, they will both be equally sharp. I don't see how the single bevel would be sharper.
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You will want the edge to be as close as possible to the place where you want to cut.
brainsausage
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Heh!
Crothcipt
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No you didn't I just misread it. Nothing to see here move along.
