Recommendations for a 240/270mm Gyuto + 300mm yanagi

First post, please be gentle.
I'm not a knife enthusiast by any stretch. I have 2 decent (not total crap) 6"-7" chef's knives (Victronix and another one, I forget the brand) that I've been using for the past 5 years for every type of cooking. I sharpen them often and once a year I send them to be professionally sharpened. That's the kind of cook I've been so far and I've been happy.
Lately I've had more free time to cook so I've been getting into making sushi and other fish dishes and a few weeks ago I was cooking at a friend's house which had a sashimi knife and I really like the quality of my cuts using a proper sushi knife. And so, I've decided to take the plunge into Japanese kitchen knives, and also finally upgrade my chef's knife.
So, with that in mind, I'm looking for a good value entry level traditional Gyuto 240mm/270mm and 300mm yanagi. I'm not really familiar with materials but I am looking for something that requires minimal maintenance (I expect it would still require more careful maintenance than my Victronix, but nothing that is too demanding). Since I don't know whether I prefer carbon or stainless steel then I prefer to buy the 2 knives made from different materials to compare and see which I prefer best.
I don't have a set budget but I prefer to not spend too much on my first knives. Along the lines of $500-$600 for both knives feels right.

From reading some posts on these forums I've seen some recommendations for MAC knives on the big manufacturer's side, as well as Masamoto and Wanatabe. But they all have many series and materials that I'm not sure which are the right ones to chose.
Also, if giving good value and in good condition, used knives are a good option as well (there is a current listing for a 240mm Masamoto KS Gyuto but I'm not sure if it's not too used for good value.

Looking forward for your comments

First of all welcome to KKF!

The Masamoto KS from B/S/T is an awesome value if you want 240mm gyuto. But be prepared that it does require more maintenance: you'd need to rinse it with water and wipe clean after each use or it will rust. And that's true for every carbon knife out there. You may want to choose semi-stainless knives which can tolerate more time without rinsing and wiping.

You budget allow lots of different options and it would be great if you could answer questions from http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...hich-Knife-Should-I-Buy-quot-Questionnaire-v2 to get better recommendations for you.

Since for some reason I can't edit my post, I'll put some more info from the questionnaire in a new post:

What country are you in?
I currently live in Israel but am moving to CA in September.

Are you right or left handed?
Left handed.

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
I don't know, but I have very large hands (glove size XXL-3XL) so I prefer large thick handles

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
For the Gyuto - stainless or relatively stainless, for the yabagi it's not a must. If it means I have to wipe it clean after every use but I get a better blade then so be it.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?
Gyuto: everyday use. Mostly vegetable slicing and chopping greens. Some meat slicing.
Yanagi - slicing sashimi and fish filetting

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Currently synthetic but I will use what you recommend,

Do you sharpen your own knives? Very basically (with a Minosharp) but I'm eilling to learn to use a stone.

Speedy:

Welcome to KKF.

I was where you are a couple of years ago, and I can tell you what I have learned, though I am far from an expert. There are a number of experts here who will respond in time.

First, it will become clear in time that sharpening your own knives is necessary and a large part of the joy of owning and using good knives. You can get started with a King 1000 stone from Amazon very inexpensively. The videos on Japanese Knife Imports will provide plenty of guidance.

Before you buy your first good Japanese knife, the best thing to do is call Jon at the same place and get his advice. He can be counted on to give reliable advice that will save you a lot of money in the long run.

This will become a most enjoyable addiction. Enjoy!

Keith

How often would you use your yanagi? If you are like me, I use my yanagi maybe 10 times a year, and I use my gyuto 5 times a week. So it would make sense to splurge on the gyuto and get a less expensive yanagi (though lefty yanagi don't exactly come cheap). I'm a lefty, and my yanagi is a 270mm Shimatani hammer finished blue steel knife I picked up from metalmasterjp on ebay. I like it quite a bit, though it doesn't get much of a workout, so I'm not exactly the most demanding yanagi user. I see that metalmasterjp no longer shows any knives from this line, but does show a number of damascus blue steel yanagi from Shimatani. You will have to message metalmasterjp to arrange for a lefty version, if you choose to go this route.

ebay Seller hanoka513 has Tojiro shirogami yanagi available. Righty 270mm is 105$ + shipping. I've never seen a review of a Tojiro yanagi, but this seems like a pretty good bet.

For the gyuto, there are a like a zillion good choices. If you can wait a few months for delivery, you could order direct from Watanabe (or Heiji, which seems to be a bit of a high maintenance knife). Plenty of other good choices.

Welcome.

"I really like the quality of my cuts using a proper sushi knife."

A sushi knife is commonly used to describe either a yani or a suji (by the uninitiated). The yani is single bevel and arguably requires more skill to make well (read more expensive) and more sharpening skills to maintain. The suji is a double bevel slicer that will slice fish and meat, is more versatile than a yani and would probably better serve your purposes. Korin has a good selection of inexpensive yani and suji as well as gyuto available in lefty models. Good luck in your search.

As you're left-handed, you should take into account that Japanese knives are more or less asymmetric, not only by edge, but by grind as well. Don't get fooled by vendors/salesmen who tell you a different story. Normally the left side of the blade will be more or less flat, the right side more or less convexed, and the edge off-centered to the left. For a left-handed the best solution is to have this inversed. Masahiro produces carbon blades especially for left-handed, with that inversed geometry.

Thanks for all of your replies.
Following your tips and comments, I've decided to go for a low-maintanance, blue steel Gyuto. Currently looking into options from Watanabe, Masamoto and Masahiro. I'll try and get one for $350 which seems to leave me with $250 for the yanagi.
Question is, can I get a decent white #1 yanagi for $250? In terms of length, most recommendations are for a 300mm yanagi. Perhaps I should go for a shorter blade to fit the budget? Something like a 240mm?

Keep the good advice coming

Also, if purchasing a Masamoto, would you recommend doing it from Korin or www.japanesechefsknife.com? On Korin, left handed knives run 50% more, while on japanesechefsknife I don't seem to see the option for a left-handed knife.

One more question, I contacted Watanabe for the Gyuto and they assured me the blade is 50/50 so it is hand-neutral, however the handle is D-shaped and so it comes wither in left handed or right handed. They do have an octagonal handle for an extra 8000 JPY (76 USD). Am I better off re-handling someplace else?

seattle_lee said:

How often would you use your yanagi?

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I will definitely use my Gyuto more, but I believe that if I had a yanagi I would treat it to a 1-2 uses per week. We've been doing sushi night once a week for some time now and I often deal with raw fish twice a week. So yeah, the Gyuto should be the favourite in terms of budget but the yanagi will see it's use as well

speedyhead said:

One more question, I contacted Watanabe for the Gyuto and they assured me the blade is 50/50 so it is hand-neutral, however the handle is D-shaped and so it comes wither in left handed or right handed. They do have an octagonal handle for an extra 8000 JPY (76 USD). Am I better off re-handling someplace else?

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If you want to stay within your budget above, I would go with the Watanabe octagonal handle. Most rehandles that I've seen are north of $125.

Also, it depends on how important the aesthetics of the knife are to you. Most rehandles will probably be nicer than the Watanable octagonal, but expect to pay $150+ for a nicer rehandle. You can spend much more if you really want a showpiece knife.

speedyhead said:

I've decided to go for a low-maintanance, blue steel Gyuto.

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What do you mean by "low maintenance"? Aogami (blue steel) is a carbon steel and as such requires a higher level of care than stainless steel.

Yamabushi said:

What do you mean by "low maintenance"? Aogami (blue steel) is a carbon steel and as such requires a higher level of care than stainless steel.

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I seem to have had a misconception. I was under the impression that white is carbon steel and that blue falls into the category of semi-stainless which still requires care but not as much as white.

Is it generally true though that a blue #2 knife will retain a sharp edge longer compared to other steels? That is also what I consider to be low maintenance.

Blue steel is definitely a carbon steel, and will rust if neglected.

When you first start getting interested in Japanese knives - and high end cutlery in general, I think that it is very easy to focus too much on the perceived qualities of a given steel. Not all Blue steel will be the same, the nature of the heat treatment, and the skill of the person doing the forging/heat treat are far more important than the exact steel.

Think of it like this, the characteristics of a given steel should be seen only as the potential qualities that steel can achieve if the handling of it and heat treatment are perfect. And even then the 'perfect' heat treat can be seen as subjective, because different makers may treat the same steel different ways to achieve different outcomes, for example a few extra Rockwell points (hardness) or to make a blade tougher.

In fact the difference between really well treated white and blue steels is very slight - many pros wouldn't be able to tell the difference. In general terms, the alloying ingredients in blue steel help its edge retention and white steel will be easier to sharpen, but that can differ from maker to maker.

The profile and geometry of a knife are going to be the biggest factors of how the knife performs. Obviously decide wether you want carbon or stainless and then go from there.

If you want the advantages of carbon for gyuto with less maintenance, perhaps consider a stainless clad carbon steel knife like a Hiromoto AS or a gengetsu. I love my AS, and frankly haven't used a gengetsu, but they look the business.

Dusty said:

Blue steel is definitely a carbon steel, and will rust if neglected.

When you first start getting interested in Japanese knives - and high end cutlery in general, I think that it is very easy to focus too much on the perceived qualities of a given steel. Not all Blue steel will be the same, the nature of the heat treatment, and the skill of the person doing the forging/heat treat are far more important than the exact steel.

Think of it like this, the characteristics of a given steel should be seen only as the potential qualities that steel can achieve if the handling of it and heat treatment are perfect. And even then the 'perfect' heat treat can be seen as subjective, because different makers may treat the same steel different ways to achieve different outcomes, for example a few extra Rockwell points (hardness) or to make a blade tougher.

In fact the difference between really well treated white and blue steels is very slight - many pros wouldn't be able to tell the difference. In general terms, the alloying ingredients in blue steel help its edge retention and white steel will be easier to sharpen, but that can differ from maker to maker.

The profile and geometry of a knife are going to be the biggest factors of how the knife performs. Obviously decide wether you want carbon or stainless and then go from there.

If you want the advantages of carbon for gyuto with less maintenance, perhaps consider a stainless clad carbon steel knife like a Hiromoto AS or a gengetsu. I love my AS, and frankly haven't used a gengetsu, but they look the business.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the more in depth explanation.
Your input has made me change my mind slightly. I'll add maybe $50 to my budget and buy a stainless 150mm petty as well - to be used by my wife mainly (she prefers short edges anyway). That will leave me free to purchase both the Gyuto and Yanagi with carbon edges and since I'll be the sole user - I don't mind the care that they require.
For the Gyuto I still prefer a knife that retains an edge, rather than the sharpest edge possible. For the Yanagi, I prefer a super sharp edge that is easy to sharpen rather than a knife that retains an edge. Since I don't know much (read: nothing at all) about materials, heating processes and knife profiles - I would follow whichever recommendations this forum and other experts would give me within my budget.