Yoshiaki Fujiwara gyuto for a beginning freehand sharpener?

Hey all!

I was hoping to get your insight on my Kato gyuto. A little backstory, it was a good deal at the time, so I bought one. Thus far, I haven't used it though. I've been using my Zakuri 240 gyuto and practicing my sharpening on that along with my 150 petty. I'm still getting down this whole freehand sharpening hobby. I definitely love it! But I'm also still getting better, day by slow day. Part of the reason I haven't broken out the Kato is because I've done a lot of reading about the Yoshiaki Fujiwara gyutos that make me a bit nervous about owning one. I see that some people have talked about the large amount of thinning that needs to be done for the gyuto to really shine. Also, there's the issue of micro beveling to prevent chipping (which I can't do yet... I hope) I'm sure this is personal preference, but for those of you who own/have used one, what are your thoughts?

I haven't cut a thing with it yet since I got it and I certainly don't mind storing it away for a while until I'm a adequate sharpener to really take care of it and let it shine. But of course, who doesn't want to use a knife they have in the closet?? Hence my post. What do you folks think is necessary as far as initial thinning and whether or not it really needs micro bevels to perform well? Along with any other insight you might have on what you would do to this knife to make it even more stellar.

Thank in advance!

Gavin

I have no experience with this knife so take what I say with a grain of salt.

If the knife is sharp then it should be fine to use. Just don't be too rough with it, don't twist the knife mid cut, don't hit anything hard. As far as micro beveling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwnFrjiAA_8

As far as thinning goes. It could be the case where you have a Lamborghini right now and thinning it could make it a Ferrari. It may be an awesome knife that you are just afraid to use right now.

But once again I don't know what I am talking about, just my thoughts.

Thanks for the reply!

When I talked to Maksim about it, he mentioned that having a micro bevel on it will help to keep it from chipping, this gyuto in particular since I wanted to use it as a workhorse. He said that he does use it as a workhorse, even for squash, etc. and hasn't had problems as long as he keeps a micro bevel on it. So I'm not too concerned about twisting or being too rough with it; thankfully my knife skills aren't that bad. :laugh: My concern is less being able to put the micro bevel back on. I suppose I could always send it out or take it to EE or something next time I'm up that way to have it sharpened, but it defeats the purpose of learning freehand sharpening. It's more that while I'm trying to put the micro bevel back on, I may inadvertently mess up the geometry of the blade itself.

During my copious amounts of reading, I thought I saw a post about someone that didn't keep the original geometry and felt it wasn't as great of a cutter after that. So the micro bevel issue is more that I would just have to practice sharpening knives first. I just have concerns about maintaining the geometry and thinning. Looking back, I guess the people who talked about needing to thin a Kato were also much more discerning individuals with vastly more experience than I to be able to know and tell the difference. So it may be a moot point. Perhaps I'm just nervous and don't want to mess up my beloved Kato! Hah!

P.S. Jake always has something appropriate to say it seems. Glad someone else digs Adventure Time! :lol2:

Unless you are extremely heavy handed and careless, I would think it would be highly unlikely that you would ruin much less significantly alter the the geometry of your Kato. Like greasedbullet I recommend watching Jon's video, and like greasedbullet, although I have plans to visit Kato-san's workshop in spring, I do not yet own one of his knives, so temper my advice a bit. But, nearly all of the talk that I've read/heard about Katos regarding thinning is the potential challenge of retaining the geometry over time, not about needing thinning or any significant work OOTB.

Thanks Yamabushi.

That makes sense. After what you guys have said, I feel less intimidated about changing the geometry. I'll just have to get the hang of sharpening micro bevels. I suppose I can always have someone thin it for me too since that's something I feel completely uncomfortable doing haha. I feel a lot better about using it now. Thanks to both of you!

I'm still hoping to hear from someone that has thinned their Kato soon after getting it to see if there is a major difference in knife performance or feel of the knife before and after!

Also, I'm now ridiculously jealous that you're in Japan with access to all the blacksmiths AND Hatsumi-sensei! I thought about studying Bujinkan and adding it in to the rest of my knowledge base for a while now.

No worries, mate! As for a thinning a Kato right away, keeping in mind that I do not yet own one, I would say that that's not a good idea. IMHO, a major part of what makes a Kato a Kato is the grind, and the superior cutting and good product separation that comes from that. Improper/excessive thinning could lead to both a degradation in cutting efficiency and an increase in stiction. From everything that I've read, Kato's are not good value fixer-uppers like the older thicker Hiromoto AS, they are known to be a quality, refined cutters right out of the box. YMMV.

As for living in Japan, yeah it's great!! And, I was just training and talking with Hatsumi-sensei last night at the Tokyo Budokan... life is good!

gavination said:

I'm still hoping to hear from someone that has thinned their Kato soon after getting it to see if there is a major difference in knife performance or feel of the knife before and after!

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Why in the name of all that is holy would you want to thin a Kato?

Pensacola Tiger said:

Why in the name of all that is holy would you want to thin a Kato?

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Hey that's what I just said, albeit slightly more indirectly!

If you go to the passaround forum you can find a thread where a Kato was improved so much it had to be totaled. :whistling:

Haha! Which is exactly why I asked! :lol2:

I had read that a few people thinned theirs and it performed better, but perhaps not OOTB. I'll stop being such a chicken ****. Kato is about to see the light of day!

Thanks guys!

daveb said:

If you go to the passaround forum you can find a thread where a Kato was improved so much it had to be totaled. :whistling:

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I had read that one, but I couldn't quite figure it why it didn't perform as well. It seemed like it needed to be thinned?? Or did the geometry get skewed somewhere along the way?

I'd try the knife first before even thinking of thinning it. I've thinned a couple of knives OOTB but they were pretty cheap and the whole point of buying them was to see if I could get Ferrari performance for Skoda money. If you don't like how it cuts I'd sell it and buy a thinner knife, by thinning it you're potentially making a big dent in its value

Because there are a lot of occasional tinkerers who think they can grind a knife better than a master bladesmith from Japan who has been doing it his entire life?. And to think that these knives have such an outstanding reputation largely due to the unusual/atypical geometry originally set by.... you guessed it, Kato.

Mine was one of the early ones and it had an amazing grind. No initial thinning needed. I didn't have much problems with micro chipping either. They're really fun knives. Just use the damn knife, it's what it's made for

The Kato is a great knife - cuts VERY well (without thinning). I own a petty as well as a gyuto, and I don't find the steel brittel or in any way more prone to chipping than my other knives. Use the knife as you would with any good knife and nothing unusual is going to happen. Its called The Workhorse :viking:. I do, however, find the Katos a little harder to sharpen than many other knives. They simply needed more time on the stones to get a great resultat. Mind the tip - it is unusually thin and I've brokken the outer 0,5-1mm of both my Katos.
- Kim

brainsausage said:

Just use the damn knife, it's what it's made for

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Hah! Well said. It's usually my motto anyway.

And thanks Kim, it's good to know to be particularly mindful with the tip, although I tend to be anyway because I've chipped the tip of my Zakuri being a little careless already. :biggrin:

Did either/both of you put a micro bevel on when you sharpened? Maksim told me it was already micro beveled, but wondering if I need to make sure I put that micro bevel back on every time I sharpen.

Tim, you make a good point. I already know it's an amazing gyuto to begin with, especially considering I was just applying some mineral oil to store it and clean sliced off a part of my finger. About four layers of skin to be exact. A very precise, four or so layers at that! I think that's partly what added a bit more trepidation was that it's so amazingly sharp, I just want to make sure it stays a great cutter!

Thanks again to everyone for the input btw!

gavination said:

...wondering if I need to make sure I put that micro bevel back on every time I sharpen.

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Micro-beveling is very common practice in Japan and has certain benefits associated with it, but ultimately it's your choice.

stevenStefano said:

I'd try the knife first before even thinking of thinning it.

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+1.

I can't imagine thinning a knife before using it. Use the d*mn thing and figure out if it you want it thinned. If. You. Want. It. Thinned.

Yamabushi said:

Micro-beveling is very common practice in Japan and has certain benefits associated with it, but ultimately it's your choice.

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Any drawbacks to micro beveling? Aside from my initial gut reaction of "It's haaaaaarrrrrrrrdddddddduh!" :lol2:

And of course I would use it before I thinned it. :laugh: I suppose what I meant (and poorly communicated, oops!) was if it would perform better with thinning right off the bat or required too much maintenance and I should find one that was easier to maintain for my level of sharpening skill. But the more I talked to you guys and thought about it, the more I realized that I can just have someone do the parts I can't do (read: take it to EE or to Jon:doublethumbsup for the time being until I am proficient/comfortable with those parts.

I don't know if I'm making sense. Exhausted and feeling under the weather. Hopefully I'm not talking in circles... but I think I do that anyway. :cool2:

gavination said:

Any drawbacks to micro beveling?

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In absolute terms, regarding the cutting edge with a micro-bevel it's not technically as sharp. That being said cutting efficiency is not just a product of the cutting edge, but also a product of the thickness/thinness behind the edge. Having both a very thin edge and being very thin behind the edge could equate to a fragile blade. Micro-beveling will allow you to get very thin behind the edge while maintaining a certain amount of strength at the edge. Please, keep in mind that we are speaking in relative terms here, and other things like the type of steel and it's specific heat treatment are a factor in the whole equation.

Have you watched jons micro bevelling vid? I reckon your initial gut reaction that its too hard is misplaced. Im no pro but personally found it quite easy, less strokes, lighter pressure.. I dont use one anymore on my kato but it probably doesnt get a hard workout compared to chefs.

jimbob said:

Have you watched jons micro bevelling vid? I reckon your initial gut reaction that its too hard is misplaced. Im no pro but personally found it quite easy, less strokes, lighter pressure.. I dont use one anymore on my kato but it probably doesnt get a hard workout compared to chefs.

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I agree. IMHO, it's not so hard. I think the difficulty is getting over the mental block of holding such a high angle 30-45°. Initially it just feels wrong. I definitely recommend that you go back and watch Jon's micro-beveling video a few times.

It's less the concept of micro beveling and more that I'm still working on the muscle memory to hold a solid angle. Working on a consistent 12-15ish range right now and still not quite 100% yet.

I feel like I need to offer to sharpen all my friends' knives at this point just for more practice haha. Now if only I had more time...

There's really only one way to get better!

jimbob said:

I dont use one anymore on my kato but it probably doesnt get a hard workout compared to chefs.

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Have you noticed a difference in chipping at all? Do you ever use it on squash or other workhorse-ish type stuff? Maybe this is a good excuse to get a cimeter or a big cleaver too for the rough and tumble.

Edit: spelling. must sleep.

Yamabushi said:

There's really only one way to get better!

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Haha! I'm tryin! Sometimes I wish YouTube would go away so I would be forced to go FIND someone and learn firsthand and pick up tips and tricks of the trade. Maybe I should offer to teach someone how to climb in trade. :lol:

It was chippy initially, but after a few touch ups not at all. It can definitely handle all i throw at it. However, ive found my cck 1303 cleaver to be the best for large dense veges like sweet potato.

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Yamabushi said:

In absolute terms, regarding the cutting edge with a micro-bevel it's not technically as sharp. That being said cutting efficiency is not just a product of the cutting edge, but also a product of the thickness/thinness behind the edge. Having both a very thin edge and being very thin behind the edge could equate to a fragile blade. Micro-beveling will allow you to get very thin behind the edge while maintaining a certain amount of strength at the edge. Please, keep in mind that we are speaking in relative terms here, and other things like the type of steel and it's specific heat treatment are a factor in the whole equation.

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That was very well put!

Benuser said:

That was very well put!

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Thank you, sir!