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Yamabushi

Yamabushi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Messages
207
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82
Location
Tokyo, Japan
So I received a new 253mm gyuto and 125mm petty from Nakayaheiji on Friday, and while they were pretty sharp OOTB, I just couldn't resist putting the gyuto to the stones (Shapton Pro #1000 & #5000). I'm pretty happy with the job I did. First I pulled out the old Sharpie to make sure I was hitting all the right spots and then followed Jon Broida's instructions in another KKF thread HERE. By placing my fingers a bit higher with the feeling of pushing the shinogi upward, I was able to follow the shinogi line on both sides quite well never breaching it, hitting that area without hitting the edge. Then by changing my finger position down near the edge, I was able to hit the edge on both sides raising a small consistent burr. I followed this process first on the #1000 and then on the #5000. I then de-burred with a stropping motion on the #5000 and then on loaded felt. After that, following Jon's micro-beveling video, I micro-beveled on the right side only, followed by stropping on the #5000 again. Finished the whole process with a bit of stropping on leather, and produced a very nice edge.

Everything generally went well, but I had a couple of things come up:
  1. On the right side when working the area below the shinogi, but not the edge I was getting a bit of stiction on my #5000, and to a lesser degree on my #1000.
  2. After the whole process was said and done, I got much more of a polished/mirror finish compared to how they came from Heiji, a matte almost kasumi finish. I'm guessing while there may be some technique differences, the main thing is he probably used Jnats.

OK, so I'm a completely open book here. Please, let me know how I can potentially address my two main issues, and if there are any improvements and/or modifications recommended to my process. Thank you in advance!

Also just for the record, living in Japan I opted to order directly from Nakayaheiji, but if I didn't live here I would definitely have ordered from JKI for peace of mind and the value added service!
 
Yamabushi, I just have to say how jealous you make me with the things you have access to in Japan!! :lol2: Of course we have access to other things here in the US as well, but I have such a crazy craving to visit. It gets me all pumped up and excited to make my June trip happen though!

Enjoy the Heiji dude!

gavin.
 
Yamabushi said:
[*]After the whole process was said and done, I got much more of a polished/mirror finish compared to how they came from Heiji, a matte almost kasumi finish. I'm guessing while there may be some technique differences, the main thing is he probably used Jnats.
[/LIST]
Click to expand...

I use king#800 & Uchigomori Fingerstone for final finish.
 
Yamabushi said:
1. On the right side when working the area below the shinogi, but not the edge I was getting a bit of stiction on my #5000, and to a lesser degree on my #1000.
Click to expand...

I imagine it's partly due to the wide Heiji bevels and the surface area contact. Or maybe the slurry was slightly dry and you need more water? I know what you mean, but sometimes when you get it right there's a kind of sweetspot when everything's in balance, until the slurry then dries out and things stick more.

Yamabushi said:
2. ... almost kasumi finish. I'm guessing while there may be some technique differences, the main thing is he probably used Jnats.
Click to expand...

Well, well... :whistling:
 
BTW, I should have specified in my initial post that both my Heiji's are semi-stainless.


Dardeau said:
Edipis Rex did a Heiji sharpening demo http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/12335-Heiji-spa-day
that should be helpful.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I had forgotten about that thread! Additionally, I should credit Edipis a lot as being a great source of information on all things Heiji. He's been extremely helpful!


gavination said:
Yamabushi, I just have to say how jealous you make me with the things you have access to in Japan!! :lol2: Of course we have access to other things here in the US as well, but I have such a crazy craving to visit. It gets me all pumped up and excited to make my June trip happen though!

Enjoy the Heiji dude!

gavin.
Click to expand...
Thanks mate! Definitely let me know if you come over!


cclin said:
I use king#800 & Uchigomori Fingerstone for final finish.
Click to expand...
Cheers cclin, I appreciate that!


Asteger said:
I imagine it's partly due to the wide Heiji bevels and the surface area contact. Or maybe the slurry was slightly dry and you need more water? I know what you mean, but sometimes when you get it right there's a kind of sweetspot when everything's in balance, until the slurry then dries out and things stick more.

Well, well... :whistling:
Click to expand...
Yeah, the stiction was really the biggest negative for me with all of this. I've consistently read what a joy the Heiji's are on the stones, and while it was indeed great, the stiction wasn't! I tried a lot of water and not so much water, but neither seemed to help. I'd really like to find some sort of solution for this!

Regarding the Jnats... LOL, yeah I know, mate! Between my Heiji's and my razors, I definitely see some Jnats in my not too distant future! I'll definitely be picking your brain!
 
I don't think I've ever used a stone finer than about an aoto on the large secondary bevel, and usually I stop after 1k Chosera (the edge itself gets a different treatment). I think that may be the source of the sticktion you are experiencing, as there is just nowhere for water to go between the bevel and the very fine stone, and water surface tension is rearing its ugly head. Leaving it a little bit rough, and, just like yours all of mine have been a little bit roughly finished on the secondary bevel, OOTB, also helps with food sticktion. You might also want to pick up some finger stones, for finishing those areas. They are probably a lot cheaper to get in Japan than they are here (I've basically run out, and I just can't justify spending so much more than I did originally, so I use bits of sandpaper with stone slurry, these days, to clean up the not so attractive finish the 1k Chosera leaves).
 
EdipisReks said:
I don't think I've ever used a stone finer than about an aoto on the large secondary bevel, and usually I stop after 1k Chosera (the edge itself gets a different treatment). I think that may be the source of the sticktion you are experiencing, as there is just nowhere for water to go between the bevel and the very fine stone, and water surface tension is rearing its ugly head. Leaving it a little bit rough, and, just like yours all of mine have been a little bit roughly finished on the secondary bevel, OOTB, also helps with food sticktion. You might also want to pick up some finger stones, for finishing those areas. They are probably a lot cheaper to get in Japan than they are here (I've basically run out, and I just can't justify spending so much more than I did originally, so I use bits of sandpaper with stone slurry, these days, to clean up the not so attractive finish the 1k Chosera leaves).
Click to expand...
Cheers Jacob, that makes a lot of sense! It seems my main mistake was taking the secondary bevel to too high a grit. I will definitely be putting your suggestions into action. I'll take a look at the King #800, and while I've been able to avoid the temptation up till now, I'll start looking at some Jnats. It seems clear that they are unavoidably in my future! I've got a lot of research and learning to do!
 
Wow, if this photo is accurate, the King 800 is exactly what I am after!
King800-3.jpg


And, what a nice bonus that it is inexpensive, too!!
 
Pete, I don't know if this is the best place or not - just off the top of my head - but as an example here's 1 place you can order uchigumori from for fingerstones. Or you can also visit them, as I think they're connected to or basically are also the Sigma stone company, and so I think are in west Tokyo beyond Shinjuku (though have never been myself). http://www.saicom.info/cgi-bin/saicom/siteup.cgi?category=3&page=4
 
I use a King 800 after the Chosera 1k, much of the time. That's pretty much what it looks like.

BTW, you don't need to work the secondary bevel every time you sharpen. I sharpen the primary three or four times before I thin it back out. It won't hurt anything to thin it every time, but I like enjoying the OOTB geometry as long as possible, as I've never been quite able to get it to be the same.
 
Asteger said:
Pete, I don't know if this is the best place or not - just off the top of my head - but as an example here's 1 place you can order uchigumori from for fingerstones. Or you can also visit them, as I think they're connected to or basically are also the Sigma stone company, and so I think are in west Tokyo beyond Shinjuku (though have never been myself). http://www.saicom.info/cgi-bin/saicom/siteup.cgi?category=3&page=4
Click to expand...
Cool, thank you! OK, I found the shop location in Nakano between Nakano-dori and Kannana-dori. I'll visit them when I get back to Tokyo after my Europe and Israel excursion.



EdipisReks said:
I use a King 800 after the Chosera 1k, much of the time. That's pretty much what it looks like.

BTW, you don't need to work the secondary bevel every time you sharpen. I sharpen the primary three or four times before I thin it back out. It won't hurt anything to thin it every time, but I like enjoying the OOTB geometry as long as possible, as I've never been quite able to get it to be the same.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification, and good point about preserving the OOTB geometry!
 
If you don't want to go J-nat route just yet, but would still like to get a darker and finer finish on the cladding, you can opt for a soft synthetic stone.

King 800, and JNS 800, that I have can give a nice dark, consistent finish, and with a help of a finger stone of some sort, finish can be nice. However,
the scratches it leaves are still pretty coarse.

When I had Arashiyama 6k, I could get a nice kasumi finish from it with a little bit of muddy work. And with a little finger stone, you can achieve a very
good finish out of it easily. Other soft stones that I have tried in the past that give nice kasumi finish are Super Stone 3k, and the dreaded soft and crumbly synthetic alto. I probably would've put Kitayama on the list, but never been able to get consistent finish with it on its own myself.

Since you read Japanese, please have a loot at Tatsuya Aoki (of Suiin)'s blog here: http://hibisyugyo.blog84.fc2.com as well as Suisin's articles http://www.suisin.co.jp/Japanese/tokusyu/tokusyu.htm and http://www.suisin.co.jp/toku02/index.html. There are a lot of goodies there, particular sharpening and finishing on synthetic stones, that I could only appreciate via picture and automatic translation.
 
Thank you schanop, some good information. I speak a bit of Japanese, but my reading is pretty crap to be honest. That being said, I'll take a look at the pages you referenced nonetheless.
 
For those that are interested, Nakayaheiji let me know this morning that while he uses a number of natural stones to create his particular finish, the key one is a Shobu-dani.
 
Very nice looking knives!!

On the subject of stones that give a nice, misty finish and really bring out the contrast in steels - I will second the JNS 800 and also mention the JNS 6k.

The 800 is a huge stone that benefits from permasoaking and really reveals itself once it's been soaked and broken in. I was on the fence about it at first but I absolutely love it now. It's fairly fast cutting, muddy, but not too soft. I find it to be more in the 1k-2k range. It gives a really, really nice 'base finish' too.

The 6k is a true splash and go and very smooth feeling stone. Hard but it quickly muds up when polishing. The contrast and finish it provides on my clad knives is probably the best of any stone I own - synthetic or natural. With very little effort. And I'm not even a person that gets worked up over finishes.

I don't own a King 800 but there are a lot of good reviews out there about its finishing powers, and the price is right.

Best of luck!
 
labor of love said:
BTW yamabushi, that heiji looks great. really nice profile. did you request that particular profile?
Click to expand...

JDA_NC said:
Very nice looking knives!!

On the subject of stones that give a nice, misty finish and really bring out the contrast in steels - I will second the JNS 800 and also mention the JNS 6k.

The 800 is a huge stone that benefits from permasoaking and really reveals itself once it's been soaked and broken in. I was on the fence about it at first but I absolutely love it now. It's fairly fast cutting, muddy, but not too soft. I find it to be more in the 1k-2k range. It gives a really, really nice 'base finish' too.

The 6k is a true splash and go and very smooth feeling stone. Hard but it quickly muds up when polishing. The contrast and finish it provides on my clad knives is probably the best of any stone I own - synthetic or natural. With very little effort. And I'm not even a person that gets worked up over finishes.

I don't own a King 800 but there are a lot of good reviews out there about its finishing powers, and the price is right.

Best of luck!
Click to expand...
Thank you, I'll look into those, especially the JNS #6000
 
Brought home a King #800, soaked it for 35 minutes and then went back and hit the secondary bevel again. Result?... major success I would say! It looks great, very similar to the finish from Nakayaheiji as judged by a side by side comparison with my untouched petty. After that, I hit the micro-bevel again on my Shapton #5000 and all was well!

I'm very happy with result! Thank you to everyone for their guidance. This will help me delay my inevitable surrender to Jnats for a little while longer. :biggrin:

If I wanted to take this a step farther I would probably like to find another stone somewhere in the #2000 and up range that would give me a finer, but similar hazy finish. Some candidates have already been listed: Shobu-dani, Aoto, JNS #6000, Arashiyama #6000, etc. I'm interested in hearing more on the topic, if anyone has additional suggestions.
 
Reading Edipus ... R ... (how does he spell it?) Rex's recommendation, the King 800 does sound interesting. Of course, that's the one you should buy as you're in Japan, and so cheap too. Sounds similar to the JNS 800 I have used, and I agree with what's been said about that.

Of the others, I haven't used synths that much, but I still have and like the Arashiyama and if you look around you can get a good price on it. Under Y5000 I think? If I remember, I think it has some natural material mixed in and so can give you a bit of that feel and finish. It is fine-ish though, and these days I don't worry too much about a really fine finish and edge. The Arashiyama is a 6000, but (though a small difference) maybe a 5000 might be more my taste.
 
Asteger said:
Reading Edipus ... R ... (how does he spell it?) Rex's recommendation, the King 800 does sound interesting. Of course, that's the one you should buy as you're in Japan, and so cheap too. Sounds similar to the JNS 800 I have used, and I agree with what's been said about that.

Of the others, I haven't used synths that much, but I still have and like the Arashiyama and if you look around you can get a good price on it. Under Y5000 I think? If I remember, I think it has some natural material mixed in and so can give you a bit of that feel and finish. It is fine-ish though, and these days I don't worry too much about a really fine finish and edge. The Arashiyama is a 6000, but (though a small difference) maybe a 5000 might be more my taste.
Click to expand...

What kind of finish do you get with the Arashiyama? Does it give good contrast and kasumi? And, I just checked, yeah it's inexpensive 4-5000yen.
 
OK, so another question... if and when I make an mistake and stray above the shinogi when sharpening/thinning, how can I produce/replicate the finish on the sides of the blade above the shinogi?
 
Yamabushi said:
OK, so another question... if and when I make an mistake and stray above the shinogi when sharpening/thinning, how can I produce/replicate the finish on the sides of the blade above the shinogi?
Click to expand...

:sad0: No solution. Only trouble!
 
... Nah, you can polish that area in various ways. Use stone slurry and perhaps some kind of sandpaper of an appropriate grit. Only teasin' :happymug:
 
Yamabushi said:
OK, so another question... if and when I make an mistake and stray above the shinogi when sharpening/thinning, how can I produce/replicate the finish on the sides of the blade above the shinogi?
Click to expand...

I've never had any luck replicating the original finish, so I just use sandpaper and stone slurry to refinish both sides to whatever level I find to be acceptable. As the knife is thinned over time, you'll eventually want to reduce the thickness above the shinogi in order to maintain the correct geometry, anyway (otherwise the knife will become too thick well above the edge for good cutting) so I wouldn't worry about changing the finish.
 
EdipisReks said:
I've never had any luck replicating the original finish, so I just use sandpaper and stone slurry to refinish both sides to whatever level I find to be acceptable. As the knife is thinned over time, you'll eventually want to reduce the thickness above the shinogi in order to maintain the correct geometry, anyway (otherwise the knife will become too thick well above the edge for good cutting) so I wouldn't worry about changing the finish.
Click to expand...
Cheers! Makes sense.
 
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