In the market for a Shun Sumo Santoku but...

I've held a few variations of the Shun's Sumo Santoku and it's super comfortable to me, but hearing multiple mentions of Shun's durability issues, even specifically around this knife (granted some are probably a result of mishandling, an unlucky break or otherwise) I'm trying to find a similar knife from another manufacturer but I haven't really found one.

I'm looking for a multi-purpose knife, preferably stain resistant, with a tall/wide blade with plenty of knuckle clearance around 8/12" max $250. Something in the shape of the Shun Sumo Santoku or a Deba but a multipurpose knife that will be primarily used for home vegetable prep.

Here's the Premier Sumo Santoku for reference http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008QCWI9A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Some knives I was considering (in addition to the Shun Sumo Santoku) include:
Glestain Gyutou 8.2"
Yoshihiro Powdered Daisu Steel Santoku 6.5"
Yoshikane Hakata Santoku Hammer Finished 7 1/8"
ZHEN Japanese 67-Layer Damascus VG-10 Vegetable Chopping Knife/Cleaver, 7-Inch
Shun Classic Vegetable Cleaver

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

You can read a lot about Shun knives here on KFF. I have Shun 6" petty classic with VG-10 core and do not much like it. Unless I put heavy secondary bevel on it, it micro-chips a lot. The blade is not very strong (easy to bend). It was our first j-knife (8 years ago). I would not buy it again (these got huge price increase over the years). And I would surely not pay $250 for a Shun unless they got MUCH better.

I see Yoshikane SKD Hakata on your list - I am considering it too Yoshikane makes great knives - I had SLD suji and it was amaying. I still have 80mm SKD petty which is amazing as well. A member here ordered recently the SKD Hakata (for pro environment) and promised to share more info once he has it. I am impatiently waiting to see what will be his opinion

First, welcome to KKF.

As to durability issues, you must be referring to the oft repeated reports that Shuns are "chippy", right? This is bad information, as they are no more prone to chip than any other Japanese knife. Chipping is caused by improper cutting technique, sharpening to too acute an angle, or a combination of both. I have owned and used several Shun knives, and I can assure you that they are well-made, durable knives with better fit and finish than most factory knives.

By the way, debas are not multipurpose knives - they are designed to break down fish, and are not suitable for vegetable prep, despite their appearance.

Rick

Just saw this Sorry I forgot to include it

LOCATION
USA, NY

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef's Knife or Vegetable cleaver

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either, Like the D-Shape on the Sumo Santoku

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
8.5" max

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No, but preferred

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$275

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing, chopping, & mincing vegetables, trimming/slicing meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
None

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Pinch Grip, Rocking

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Taller, more knuckle clearance, wider blade for food-pickup

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Damascus or Hammered Damascus, D-Shaped Handle

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Heavier knife with taller wider blade for more knuckle clearance

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Better food release

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
A few months used solely for prepping dinner weekdays and a few more intensive meals on weekends

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
no, but just bought a Mercer 1k/3k waterstone and will be practicing on cheap/friends cheap knives, before my own. I only hone my own knives

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
n/a

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, if the 1k/3k stone is not sufficient

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Matus said:

You can read a lot about Shun knives here on KFF. I have Shun 6" petty classic with VG-10 core and do not much like it. Unless I put heavy secondary bevel on it, it micro-chips a lot. The blade is not very strong (easy to bend). It was our first j-knife (8 years ago). I would not buy it again (these got huge price increase over the years). And I would surely not pay $250 for a Shun unless they got MUCH better.

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My Shun Ken Onion Santoku bent slightly near the heel which is another reason that I'm wary of a second Shun purchase, It primarily lives in it's stand on the counter, not even in the bamboo slotted drawer holder i have as I'm that worried about something happening to it. I use it less than I want to.

Pensacola Tiger said:

By the way, debas are not multipurpose knives - they are designed to break down fish, and are not suitable for vegetable prep, despite their appearance.

Rick

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Yeah, that's what I was told when I called Yoshihiro inquiring about one and I'm glad I did as I nearly bought one. I'm mainly looking for the deba shape and size but a thinner, more vegetable and herb friendly knife.

I had figured that there's some misinformation out there about shun, I've never experienced chipping with my Shun Ken Onion but noticed it bent near the heel doing some vegetable work, not sure when it happened but it's made me wary of another shun purchase.

I would not really dare to contradict Rick as he has much more experience, but my Shun is the most chipping-prone knife I have used so far - and it is not the knife with the most acute edge either. I did manage to chip my Yoshikane SKD petty, but that was entirely my fault using fine blade for rough work.

It also needs to be said that if Shuns from some time back were more chipping-prone, that the current ones are the same.

What bugs me with my Shun is how easy it is to bend - the blade is not "springy" enough to bounce back, nor it is strong enough not to bend in the first place. Edge holding and sharpness is OK, but can be had better for the buck IMO.

Steg - reading what kind of work you want to do with the knife - you could as well consider 180 or 210 gyuto.

Matus said:

Steg - reading what kind of work you want to do with the knife - you could as well consider 180 or 210 gyuto.

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Do you know of any with a taller/wider blade that would provide more knuckle clearance? My Pinch grip combined with my sausage fingers causes more board contact than I prefer.

My 210 Tanaka R2 gyuto has ca 50mm tall blade and allows for enough knuckle room (I have rather small hands though). But just as an example - 210 Itinomonn gyutos from Maksim @ JNS are all in 50+ range - should be more than enough. Just make a test at home with piece of cardboard instead of blade to find out how tall the knife needs to be. Or better yet directly in some knife shop.

steg said:

Yeah, that's what I was told when I called Yoshihiro inquiring about one and I'm glad I did as I nearly bought one. I'm mainly looking for the deba shape and size but a thinner, more vegetable and herb friendly knife.

I had figured that there's some misinformation out there about shun, I've never experienced chipping with my Shun Ken Onion but noticed it bent near the heel doing some vegetable work, not sure when it happened but it's made me wary of another shun purchase.

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If you're wary of buying another Shun, there are many other knives to chose from. Of the six you list in your initial post, only the ZHEN and the Shun vegetable cleavers have the tall profile and large amount of clearance you say you want. If this is secondary, then the Yoshikane that Matus recommends is a good choice, just be aware that the ho wood handle is not going to be anywhere near what you have on your Shuns in terms of fit and finish - it is a utilitarian handle.

Rick

Pensacola Tiger said:

First, welcome to KKF.

As to durability issues, you must be referring to the oft repeated reports that Shuns are "chippy", right? This is bad information, as they are no more prone to chip than any other Japanese knife. Chipping is caused by improper cutting technique, sharpening to too acute an angle, or a combination of both. I have owned and used several Shun knives, and I can assure you that they are well-made, durable knives with better fit and finish than most factory knives.

Rick

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I agree with Rick's statement. I have Shun Classic Double Hollow-Ground Sumo Santoku for three years never have any chip problem! Shun sumo santoku has very unique profile, extra width and weight make it very useful utility knife, very good F/F & Double Hollow-Ground working very well for food release! I paid $99 for mine, I can't find any knife with similar profile & F/F for under $100 to replace it. PS. I'm not Shun's Fan but I don't have prejudice against Shun either! In my experience/opinion, Shun sumo santoku is great value, well made factory knife.
checkhttp://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/16614-Shun-s?highlight=shun for more information about Shun

I absolutely agree on the handle - as much as I am not crazy about my shun, the ebony(?) D-shaped integral handle looks like new after 8 years.

One more comment on the pinch grip. I have just tested with 2 my knives. One is Ko-Bunka with 40mm tall blade, the other is the already mentioned 210 Tanaka R2 gyuto with 49mm tall blade. Both have wa handle. I can use even the Ko-Bunka in a pinch (or hammer - I see no difference there space-wise) grip with without my knuckles getting contact wit the board with some 2-3 mm left. This would not be too practical (this is a small knife with only 130mm blade), but doable. With the Tanaka there is ample of space.

My guess would be that with 50mm tall blade you should have no problem. And there are even wider blades available.

steg said:

Do you know of any with a taller/wider blade that would provide more knuckle clearance? My Pinch grip combined with my sausage fingers causes more board contact than I prefer.

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I'll just throw out something for you to consider - an inexpensive Chinese cleaver, like the Dexter-Russell:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004RFR9/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



I guarantee there will be no clearance issues, and the heavier blade will make for real easy vegetable chopping. For $37, it's hard not to try one. If it doesn't work out, just resell it on B/S/T.

If you want to read more about how to use a cleaver, or why it may be for you, here's a link to a thread about it:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...course-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post

(Disclaimer - I moved from a gyuto to a cleaver, and I'm really liking it.)

Rick

Sold, I'll be getting the Sumo first, from Shun's Classic Line mostly because I'm hoping the double scallops will assist with food release, which is the only other thing that I'd like to improve upon other than a taller blade height. Then the Yoshikane Hakata Santoku at the end of March when my bonus hits, assuming there's some left over (perhaps even the Damascus SLD version) and after I get better at sharpening with the waterstone that's on it way to me.

Does anyone think the hammered pattern on the Shun Premier Line will assist with food release better than the double scallops on the classic line?

Does anyone have experience purchasing from http://www.epicedge.com/ ?

Pensacola Tiger said:

I'll just throw out something for you to consider - an inexpensive Chinese cleaver, like the Dexter-Russell

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May have to purchase this, I'll have a look at how to use one of these correctly. Thanks!

steg said:

Does anyone think the hammered pattern on the Shun Premier Line will assist with food release better than the double scallops on the classic line?

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Food release is largely a matter of the cross-sectional geometry of the blade, and the scallops or hammered pattern can best be thought of as cosmetic.

Does anyone have experience purchasing from http://www.epicedge.com/ ?

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Yes, I have purchased several knives from The Epicurean Edge. They are a vendor here, and offer a discount for forum members.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/12082-KKF-Members-get-a-discount

Rick

+1 on the cleaver

Andy's post is a good read on why he likes cleavers.Sounds like it may be a good option for you & will not be out too much coin.A smaller vegtable cleaver is a good starter either carbon or stainless.

Scalloped sides don't do much of anything and for $275 you can get a lot more knife for your money than shun.

Epic edge is actually a vendor here, why not shoot them a message or start a topic in the sub forum?

Just pulled the trigger for $170 on the Shun Classic Sumo 7 1/2 inch with the scallops but I'll be giving my parent's unused joyce chen cleaver a run through, next time I'm there, using the techniques provided in that post and then maybe purchasing that Dexter-Russell or similar one.

I hope you will enjoy your new knife - let us know how do you like it once you get some use out of it

steg said:

Just pulled the trigger for $170 on the Shun Classic Sumo 7 1/2 inch with the scallops but I'll be giving my parent's unused joyce chen cleaver a run through, next time I'm there, using the techniques provided in that post and then maybe purchasing that Dexter-Russell or similar one.

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for $99 I think Shun Classic Sumo santoku is great value knife, but for $170 ......I don't know.....

cclin said:

for $99 I think Shun Classic Sumo santoku is great value knife, but for $170 ......I don't know.....

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Yeah, I'm kicking myself for not buying one when they were $99, now they're jacked up to ~$170 everywhere but after holding one and cutting some things with it it's a near perfect fit shape wise for my hand and grip and I'm very much a fan of the aesthetics of the knife.

steg said:

Yeah, I'm kicking myself for not buying one when they were $99, now they're jacked up to ~$170 everywhere but after holding one and cutting some things with it it's a near perfect fit shape wise for my hand and grip and I'm very much a fan of the aesthetics of the knife.

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ok, I suggest you put micro bevel on both side. enjoy!

cclin said:

ok, I suggest you put micro bevel on both side. enjoy!

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Would I be able to do that with the 3000 grit side or will I need a finer grit stone?

micro bevel or not - you will either find the 3000 enough or not. Just use it for a while and see whether you like the edge you will get. I would have suggested other stones (1k and 3k are a bit too close to each other), but since you already bought it - see what you can do with it. Sharpening with water stones takes ... practice

I would suggest you looking at some videos over on youtube - for example the videos by Jon from JKI: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpgJbCAVxzDHKaKYeuGYyOA There are MANY others (I for example got myself DVD from Murray Carter which I liked), but because many people use different technique, do not try to follow all of them as that would be confusing

Matus said:

micro bevel or not - you will either find the 3000 enough or not. Just use it for a while and see whether you like the edge you will get. I would have suggested other stones (1k and 3k are a bit too close to each other), but since you already bought it - see what you can do with it. Sharpening with water stones takes ... practice

I would suggest you looking at some videos over on youtube - for example the videos by Jon from JKI: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpgJbCAVxzDHKaKYeuGYyOA There are MANY others (I for example got myself DVD from Murray Carter which I liked), but because many people use different technique, do not try to follow all of them as that would be confusing

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I'll take a look thanks!