Need workhorse gyuto 240mm

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Matus

Matus

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OK, I am not sure this level of detail is really necessary right now, but let's do this according to the book:

LOCATION
- Germany

KNIFE TYPE
- Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
- right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
- both but would prefer western if not too heavy.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
- 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
- yes - I would prefer stainless cladding on whatever core. I somehow fear pure carbon knife for this purpose

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$300 (300€), optimally around $200 (200€). I may consider paying more for a knife from one of "our" makers (DT, Marko, etc.).

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
- home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for:
- chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
- Tanaka R2 210mm damascus with wa handle. Reason: want longer and more workhorese blade. The Tanaka is a laser (130g !)

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
- hammer and pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
- slice, push-cut, rock

What improvements do you want from your current knife?
- slightly heavier (say up to around 200g)
- good food release
- other: there is not much to improve on edge retention of the Tanaka

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
- yes, wood - end grain only

Do you sharpen your own knives?
- yes, water stones

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I am looking to replace the Tanaka 210 R2 with a simpler (cheaper?) knife with a bit more robust blade - a 240mm workhorse. I seem to have a soft spot for kiritsuke shaped gyuto - I like the looks and tend to think that the tip may be easier to use, but that is not based on direct experience.

To give you an idea on my preferences let me mention a few candidates that I am considering (I am not really sure which of these could be described as 'workhorse'). This list is definitely NOT exclusive and not necessarily within the price range in NEW condition!
- Itinomon SS clad
- Yoshikane SKD hammered finish
- Suisin INOX Honyaki
- Asai Hayabusa (SS clad AS)
- Devin Thomas AEB-L ITK
- Fowler
- Gesshin Kagero
- Kochi Ku SS clad carbon
- Gengetsu SS clad white#2 or semi-stainless core
- Gesshin Heji semi-stainless
- Rader :) (I guess for $300 I could only get a handle without the blade)

I am interested in both NEW or USED knife. I may consider a trade later (just a heads up - please do not start to make me offers via this thread - this would be the wrong place)
 
I'll limit my comments to the knives on your candidate list that I have owned.

- Itinomon SS clad

The western handled version of this knife is, indeed, a "workhorse". It weighs 278 g, so it is heavier than your target weight, but the balance is such that it doesn't feel like a heavy knife. Good profile, similar to a Shigefusa.

- Yoshikane SKD hammered finish

Another "workhorse", but lighter than the Itinomonn. Maksim carried a plain (not hammered) version, which you may be able to find used. Very good knife, in either finish.

- Suisin INOX Honyaki

This is a "laser", not a "workhorse".

- Devin Thomas AEB-L ITK

Devin's blades tend toward the "laser" side, at least the early ITK series does. The early ones were very close to the Tadatsuna Inox blades. His current knives are a bit beefier at the heel, but still can't be categorized as a "workhorse".

- Fowler

Stephen's knives can go either way. I've had both a "laser" and a "workhorse" knife from him. To the best of my knowledge, though, he makes only full carbon blades.

- Gesshin Kagero

The Kagero leans more toward "laser" than "workhorse". Great PM steel in the core.

- Kochi Ku SS clad carbon

The wide bevel on the Kochi gives good food release. At 201 g it is in your target range for weight. Wa-handled, not western. My recommendation for you, but Jon has to get some back in stock.

- Gesshin Heji semi-stainless

Definitely a "workhorse". They are very noticeably "nose-heavy", which takes a bit of getting used to. Excellent food release, but mine had a tendency to wedge.

- Rader (I guess for $300 I could only get a handle without the blade)

Or maybe a framed photo of one? :D

Rick
 
I thought DT's earlier ITKs were on the beefy side. Devin himself said some time ago that every new batch is thinner than the last...I also ordered an early model ITK and am having Devin thin and refinish it. He said he doesn't (or can't) get AEB-L stock anymore in the thickness of his early ones.
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
I'll limit my comments to the knives on your candidate list that I have owned.

- Itinomon SS clad

The western handled version of this knife is, indeed, a "workhorse". It weighs 278 g, so it is heavier than your target weight, but the balance is such that it doesn't feel like a heavy knife. Good profile, similar to a Shigefusa.

- Yoshikane SKD hammered finish

Another "workhorse", but lighter than the Itinomonn. Maksim carried a plain (not hammered) version, which you may be able to find used. Very good knife, in either finish.

- Suisin INOX Honyaki

This is a "laser", not a "workhorse".

- Devin Thomas AEB-L ITK

Devin's blades tend toward the "laser" side, at least the early ITK series does. The early ones were very close to the Tadatsuna Inox blades. His current knives are a bit beefier at the heel, but still can't be categorized as a "workhorse".

- Fowler

Stephen's knives can go either way. I've had both a "laser" and a "workhorse" knife from him. To the best of my knowledge, though, he makes only full carbon blades.

- Gesshin Kagero

The Kagero leans more toward "laser" than "workhorse". Great PM steel in the core.

- Kochi Ku SS clad carbon

The wide bevel on the Kochi gives good food release. At 201 g it is in your target range for weight. Wa-handled, not western. My recommendation for you, but Jon has to get some back in stock.

- Gesshin Heji semi-stainless

Definitely a "workhorse". They are very noticeably "nose-heavy", which takes a bit of getting used to. Excellent food release, but mine had a tendency to wedge.

- Rader (I guess for $300 I could only get a handle without the blade)

Or maybe a framed photo of one? :D

Rick
Click to expand...

Agree with Rick's assessment. FWIW, here is a link to when I had the Heiji, compared to my Gengetsu.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ess-Passaround?p=165469&highlight=#post165469

You can't go wrong with the Gengetsu; along with the Kato it's one of my all time favorites. I use mine all the time.
 
Thank you for all the information, it is very helpful.

One point concerning the "target weight" of 200g. It is just an estimation of what would probably not feel too heavy. I only have the Tanaka gyuto to compare to which wights 130g and feels feather light in hand. I do appreciate the lightness, but I do realize that 'workhorse' and 'lightweight' exclude each other up to large extend. I have hard time to guess how much weight would be too much. I may try to attach some weight to my Tanaka and test it.

What I could maybe add that the knife should not feel too 'front heavy'. In this category I would guess that knife with western handle would be an advantage as the there is more weight in the handle.

I do not want to start an argument, but why should I avoid DT ITK? Because of the geometry?

P.S. Any offers on framed photo of a Rader gyuto? :wink:
 
Matus said:
Thank you for all the information, it is very helpful.



I do not want to start an argument, but why should I avoid DT ITK? Because of the geometry?
Click to expand...
The new ones arent really work horses. And theyre hard to find anyway. I like the itinomonn suggestion though.
 
Itinomonn is indeed high on the list, I am jsut not sure whether blade width (height) of 58mm not too much is and whether it does not make harder to use the tip.
 
Another +1 for the Itinomonn.
The tip works just fine.
 
I like my Itinomonn western a lot. Great knife and I agree with Rick that it does not feel too heavy in the hand. The western is not as tall as the wa version but it is more expensive however. I also like my carbon Kochi equally but it is a bit thinner than the Itinomonn behind the edge. I have not held the stainless version but I seem to recall Jon saying that the 240 was comparably thin behind the edge.
 
I do have to admit that the western Itinomonn does look nice, but 280g scares me. I am off to test the weight.
 
some of twistington's handles on those itinomonns are drop-dead gorgeous... but i prefer the overall looks of those western katos with twistington's handles...
 
OK - so I used a single Neodymium magnet to attach a few steel plates to the knife (close to the handle) to get to weight of 270g (twice the weigh of my Tanaka) and played around. Man - what a difference in handling. I still could slice two small onions, but it was much harder to cut quickly (keep in mind, I am just a home cook) as there was much more weight to move around. On the other hand it did not take much more than the weight of the knife itself to go through the onion. It did feel ... strange.

Of course - wa handled 210mm gyuto with 270g would be a rare bird and I suppose that full sized western handle makes the heavier knife easier to handle, but I am still not sure whether I want to go as fast as the 280g Itinomonn. But I will think about it.

So - any more suggestions?
 
With larger blades it's all about balance. Extra weight in the handle is a plague, with a slightly forward balance extra weight becomes a blessing.
 
Point taken. Could you guys share where is the balance point of the western AND wa kasumi 240 Itinomonn?
 
Balance point on my western itinomonn is half an inch before the kanji.
 
It is just forward of the kanji on my wa, but I have a chestnut handle on mine, never had the stock handle on either of my Itinomonns.
 
Dardeau said:
It is just forward of the kanji on my wa, but I have a chestnut handle on mine, never had the stock handle on either of my Itinomonns.
Click to expand...

So that means the knife is not 'butt heavy' I guess - is that reight?


BTW - I just saw the Rodrigue Custom 240 Gyuto in the B/S/T section - jaw-dropping. I am in strongly imbalanced mental state right now :goodevil:
 
No, just slightly on the blade heavy side. I like it a lot, not so much for work, but have two at home that get used for dinner a lot.
 
Dardeau said:
No, just slightly on the blade heavy side. I like it a lot, not so much for work, but have two at home that get used for dinner a lot.
Click to expand...

Thank you. How do you find the handle in terms of size and comfort?

*****************

I am asking a lot of questions about the Itinomonn knives, but I am still very much interested in your other proposals for a workhorse 240mm gyuto :)
 
Have you looked at the Gesshin Gonbei western? It's pretty workhorsey..
 
I need to shoot an email to Jon - there are too many interesting knives at his shop too :)
 
I think you cannot go wrong with getting advice from Jon and following his recommendation! And awesome knives he has, I find myself surfing through his webshop over and over again...
 
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