Reboot of my thread with completed questionair from newbie

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fergie

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Sorry didn't see this before... newbie mistake.

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA/ MASS



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? GYUTO then santoku, then petty

Are you right or left handed? RIGHT

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? WESTERN ONLY

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 240MM

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) YES, Or other metal with As Least possible reactivity.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? none really..but forsake of argument say sub $275 for just the Gyuto


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? HOME ONLY

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Everything except working with bones

What knife, if any, are you replacing? None Starting over

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) PINCH

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) ROCK/CHOP EVENLY

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? not applicable

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? any and all are fine
Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
mi
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? on the midhigh side



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Synthetic only

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) YES but not with stones

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) On a stone yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) at some point yes



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS..
 
Two quick questions: 1) Have you considered addng a bread/serrated knife to the list? I ask because chefs, paring, and bread knife are generally considered the "must have" three, and 2) When you say "YES but not with stones" then with what?
 
I have a standalone bread knife already. Hardly ever used so Im all set there. I had MAC knives previously and used their ceramic roll wheel to sharpen. I have a brand new one still. But I suspect that sharpening one of these jknives I'm interested in would be tantamount to sacrilege.

Also.. since I've rebooted, a few knives have caught my eye and or I'm seriously considering..one has carbon edge . I listed before but here it is again with the current purchased price as of today.

Masamoto VG 195.00
Kikuichi Moly 170.00 (not TKC because of reaction)
Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff 165.00
Hiromoto Aogami Super 165.00
Misono UX10 235.00

I haven't seriously looked ant anything in the 240-275 range yet. Unless I'm impelled to by someone over the above..
 
Gesshin Kagero at $215 should definitely be in consideration. TKC is not that reactive at all; it takes a LOT to make it rust and for the most part, will just turn a dull grey
 
hmm very plain but very nice looking ! they have it for 230.00... the 210mm is 215.00
 
Narrowed down to two based on some extensive feedback throughout other forums...

Masamoto VG 195.00....Highly regarded, one of the best in every sense[. on the list/B]..
Kikuichi Moly 170.00 (not TKC because of reaction) Skip the Moly...TKC will dull/react, off the list
Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff 165.00. Well received across the board. on the list
Hiromoto Aogami Super 165.00 edge will have significant reactions..off the list
Misono UX10 235.00.. straight up avoid, even at his price not worth it
 
Ashi Hamono Ginga 240mm, $180, BluewayJapan. I'd take this over the Takayuki GC or the Masamoto VG in a heartbeat.

If you want edge retention the Kagero is a no-brainer.

I like the profile of Sugimoto's gyuto as well. It has a very asymmetric grind however, so is a bit different to the above. The CM 240mm western is $170. Sugimoto's western handle is very nice, imo.
 
fergie said:
Narrowed down to two based on some extensive feedback throughout other forums...

Masamoto VG 195.00....Highly regarded, one of the best in every sense[. on the list/B]..
Kikuichi Moly 170.00 (not TKC because of reaction) Skip the Moly...TKC will dull/react, off the list
Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff 165.00. Well received across the board. on the list
Hiromoto Aogami Super 165.00 edge will have significant reactions..off the list
Misono UX10 235.00.. straight up avoid, even at his price not worth it
Click to expand...


The only gripe I've read about the Masamoto is the polyplastic handle. Some people prefer wood or pakkawood instead. Also some don't like VG10 for being chippy, but that depends on individual manufacturers heat treatment and I'm not certain how Masamoto VG rates. On the other hand Masamoto VG is regularly on various "best gyuto/chefs knife" lists and is praised for having a good hand feel.

Hattori FH has an excellent quality VG10 as well as a choice of ebony, cocobolo, and black linen micarta handles but has a sharp spine and may be out of your price range.

Don't rule out the Gesshin Ginga. It has great steel, an ebony handle, a good profile with a rounded spine. It may be worth paying $50 dollars more for an exponentially better knife.

You wrote you owned MAC. Have you tried the Mighty Knife MAC Pro?

One more to consider is Akifusa PM sold at epicedge.com It's powder steel with a pakkawood handle. Read the reviews. Epicurean Edge has a 10% discount for forum members. Other sites also have occasional discounts. JNS had one recently and Korin has an annual June sale I believe.

Lastly, many forum members have written that maintenance is as or more important than the knife itself. I'm in the market for a gyuto and doing much forum reading and research and have somewhat narrowed things down but the first major purchases I just made were the 8 piece sharpening stone set which is as expensive as the knife will be and some books and a sharpening DVD.
 
Mighty mac is what I had way back.. and then way way back global.

In that price range of the Hattori and the Gesshin...I am studying those two.. the akifusa as well. Id like a heavier knife so that's playing into this. a lot of specs and details to absorb for someone away from knife buying for 5 years

I don't think I can go wrong with any of the few choices I've slimmed things down to and ill most likely buy my 2 top choices to see and feel(not use) and return the loser :)
 
fergie said:
Mighty mac is what I had way back.. and then way way back global.

In that price range of the Hattori and the Gesshin...I am studying those two.. the akifusa as well. Id like a heavier knife so that's playing into this. a lot of specs and details to absorb for someone away from knife buying for 5 years

I don't think I can go wrong with any of the few choices I've slimmed things down to and ill most likely buy my 2 top choices to see and feel(not use) and return the loser :)
Click to expand...

If you want to move up from the Mighty Mac and Global for ease of sharpening and edge retention, the Masamoto isn't going to be much of an improvement, and neither is the Hattori from what I've read. The Mac isn't a hard knife to sharpen either. I just sharpened one. Globals can be tough to sharpen.

And I've used a Mighty Mac with the dimples, no less. My Global that's been thinned and regularly sharpened outperforms that knife.

I bet your problem is sharpening. How often did you sharpen the Mac and Global and what did you sharpen them with?

And if you really care about edge retention, buy a better cutting board if you're using plastic. My Japanese cutting board (polyvinyl acetate, I believe) has doubled, if not tripled, the length of time I can go between sharpening compared to a plastic cutting board. They're even significantly better than wood in my experience.
 
mhlee said:
If you want to move up from the Mighty Mac and Global for ease of sharpening and edge retention, the Masamoto isn't going to be much of an improvement, and neither is the Hattori from what I've read. The Mac isn't a hard knife to sharpen either. I just sharpened one. Globals can be tough to sharpen.

And I've used a Mighty Mac with the dimples, no less. My Global that's been thinned and regularly sharpened outperforms that knife.

I bet your problem is sharpening. How often did you sharpen the Mac and Global and what did you sharpen them with?



And if you really care about edge retention, buy a better cutting board if you're using plastic. My Japanese cutting board (polyvinyl acetate, I believe) has doubled, if not tripled, the length of time I can go between sharpening compared to a plastic cutting board. They're even significantly better than wood in my experience.
Click to expand...

The only sharpener I have ever used in my life for either knife, was the global mino sharp or the MAC roll sharp. I have never even seen a stone.
For all the attributes in a knife I'm considering.. edge retention is probably my last concern.. but im speaking out of inexperience and or ignorance. The art of sharpening is something I will be developing as I step into these higher end knives
 
fergie said:
The only sharpener I have ever used in my life for either knife, was the global mino sharp or the MAC roll sharp. I have never even seen a stone.
For all the attributes in a knife I'm considering.. edge retention is probably my last concern.. but im speaking out of inexperience and or ignorance. The art of sharpening is something I will be developing as I step into these higher end knives
Click to expand...

If edge retention is your last concern, what are your three most important concerns? You specifically wrote that you want a knife that's less reactive and easier to sharpen, and has mid to high edge retention.
 
Have you considered the Horimoto G3? The out of the box edge is quite good. Edge retention is pretty good...not as good as it's big brother the Horimoto AS but, as a stainless knife. It is REALLY good.
 
mhlee said:
If edge retention is your last concern, what are your three most important concerns? You specifically wrote that you want a knife that's less reactive and easier to sharpen, and has mid to high edge retention.
Click to expand...

The mid/to high edge retention was not intended to place that as a top concern.. it was just general info. SO if I were to clarify, I would state that sharpening ease to edge retention would be a 50/50 balance. Understanding that I've never touched a stone, and so any sharpening would be a from the beginning learning experience.

So that being said.. my most important in order would be would be.. Fit and finish, balance, non reacting, Aesthetics, edge retention, sharpening ease, cost
 
rodneyat said:
Have you considered the Horimoto G3? The out of the box edge is quite good. Edge retention is pretty good...not as good as it's big brother the Horimoto AS but, as a stainless knife. It is REALLY good.
Click to expand...

absolutely, but after extensive comparisons, both the masamoto VG and the Sakai takayuki Grand Cheff come significantly more praised. While there are a myriad of choices... the more time that goes by, the more feedback Im getting that these are pretty much the best of the best within this range of price.... with the sole exception of the kikuichi TKC, which seems to be the holy grail of price/performance. But I'm concerned about the reactivity, otherwise I would already have it.

Higher priced knives are not out of the question, I'm just not convinced that stepping from 175-195 up to 250-275 gains me that much more in the overall knife. But two everyone is talking about are the Gesshin Ginga and the Hattori Forums
 
fergie said:
Higher priced knives are not out of the question, I'm just not convinced that stepping from 175-195 up to 250-275 gains me that much more in the overall knife. But two everyone is talking about are the Gesshin Ginga and the Hattori Forums
Click to expand...

You should ask those people who are recommending the Grand Cheff and Masamoto if they've ever bought more expensive knives or compared them to the Gesshin Ginga.
 
fergie said:
absolutely, but after extensive comparisons, both the masamoto VG and the Sakai takayuki Grand Cheff come significantly more praised. While there are a myriad of choices... the more time that goes by, the more feedback Im getting that these are pretty much the best of the best within this range of price.... with the sole exception of the kikuichi TKC, which seems to be the holy grail of price/performance. But I'm concerned about the reactivity, otherwise I would already have it.

Higher priced knives are not out of the question, I'm just not convinced that stepping from 175-195 up to 250-275 gains me that much more in the overall knife. But two everyone is talking about are the Gesshin Ginga and the Hattori Forums
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you're looking in the right places for very honest and critical reviews. I've found this forum to be the best source of unbiased information.
 
James said:
I'm not sure if you're looking in the right places for very honest and critical reviews. I've found this forum to be the best source of unbiased information.
Click to expand...

Then Im totally open.. based on my questionnaire, and thefollowing I just stated "So that being said.. my most important in order would be would be.. Fit and finish, balance, non reacting, Aesthetics, edge retention, sharpening ease, cost .

Ill take any further recommendations. im in no rush... So long as western handle only $175-250 range. Gesshin Ginga/kagero have already been suggested here this forum

My utmost gratitude!
 
I would totally agree with that..I think the sub $200 range is the sweet spot for price/performance overall. Even going up to $300 is not going to gain you much, overall.


fergie said:
Higher priced knives are not out of the question, I'm just not convinced that stepping from 175-195 up to 250-275 gains me that much more in the overall knife. But two everyone is talking about are the Gesshin Ginga and the Hattori Forums
Click to expand...
 
I was in a similar position not too long ago, I found the more I researched the more difficult it got to choose. After a little while I decided to just buy a knife instead of going around in circles trying to find the 'perfect' knife for me, which is pretty difficult as you normally can't even handle them to see how they feel.
I ended up getting a Hiromoto AS and love it, but I think I would have been happy with most makes/models as it was my first Japanese knife, I really like the carbon edge on it and it has developed a nice patina, it seemed a good compromise between stainless and carbon.
Pick one and try it and if you don't like it then sell it and try another I guess.
 
WarrenB said:
I was in a similar position not too long ago, I found the more I researched the more difficult it got to choose. After a little while I decided to just buy a knife instead of going around in circles trying to find the 'perfect' knife for me, which is pretty difficult as you normally can't even handle them to see how they feel.
I ended up getting a Hiromoto AS and love it, but I think I would have been happy with most makes/models as it was my first Japanese knife, I really like the carbon edge on it and it has developed a nice patina, it seemed a good compromise between stainless and carbon.
Pick one and try it and if you don't like it then sell it and try another I guess.
Click to expand...

Thanks man... unfortunately the wife has forbid a knife that will patina.. even if its just the edge so that negates quite a few. I think its ridiculous but as these will be displayed as part of out decor.. she wants them to be all shiny and such.."whatever"..
but there are still a crazy amount of stainless to choose from.
 
I would take an Ashi Hamono Ginga ($180), or better yet, a Gesshin Ginga ($250 w/ free saya) over the Grand Cheff ANY day. I was pretty underwhelmed with the fit and finish when I handled a Grand Cheff.

If F&F is your number one concern, Jon @JKI takes QC very seriously. (And doesn't charge a "concierge" fee)

In your current price point, the difference in blade quality can be pretty subjective. Raising your price point can drastically improve the Fit and Finish however.

Mowgs
 
MowgFace said:
I would take an Ashi Hamono Ginga ($180), or better yet, a Gesshin Ginga ($250 w/ free saya) over the Grand Cheff ANY day. I was pretty underwhelmed with the fit and finish when I handled a Grand Cheff.

If F&F is your number one concern, Jon @JKI takes QC very seriously. (And doesn't charge a "concierge" fee)

In your current price point, the difference in blade quality can be pretty subjective. Raising your price point can drastically improve the Fit and Finish however.

Mowgs
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more
 
FWIW, I would be less concerned about what the 'reviews' say and more focused on what you want in a knife. For example - two of your listed finalists, the Masamoto VG and the Takayuki, are considerably different in the hand. The Masamoto is nearly 30 grams heavier (over an ounce) and 4mm taller. That would matter to me in a knife if I'm looking for just one gyuto. Also, neither have a particularly rounded choil, like say the Gesshin Kagero or the Hattori Forum. Depending on how you hold your knife, that can be important.

When I think about my favorite knives, the ones I reach for most often, one thing is consistent. They got to be my favorite knives because of how they perform and how they feel in my hand. Good luck in your search.
 
rodneyat said:
I would totally agree with that..I think the sub $200 range is the sweet spot for price/performance overall. Even going up to $300 is not going to gain you much, overall.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this.

How about identifying some knives in the sub $200 range that were better than ones above $200 or $300?
 
I don't think I or anyone else said that any knife under $200 is better than one above $200. I think what I and fergie were trying to say is that the any gains in the knives in the knives in the $250 $300 range were very minimal to some of the knives that are in the $175 to $200 range. AND these are generally speaking....Not saying there are not exceptions.


mhlee said:
I disagree with this.

How about identifying some knives in the sub $200 range that were better than ones above $200?
Click to expand...
 
rodneyat said:
I don't think I or anyone else said that any knife under $200 is better than one above $200. I think what I and fergie were trying to say is that the any gains in the knives in the knives in the $250 $300 range were very minimal to some of the knives that are in the $175 to $200 range. AND these are generally speaking....Not saying there are not exceptions.
Click to expand...

OK. So name some knives in the $250 to $300 range where the gains are minimal compared to knives in the $175 to $200 range.
 
With F&F and aesthetics as two of your top priorities, perhaps look to some of the KKF craftsmen to make you a custom handle.
 
I have to echo the Ashi Ginga ($180+ $13 ship) or Gesshin Ginga ($250 + ship). They are virtually the same knife, I think Jon has tweaked the Gesshin and F&F is a lot better- rounded choil and spine, heat treated to 61 and comes with a Saya. The Ashi has an hrc of 59, is not rounded and does not come with a Saya. Both are superb knives and either one will serve you well.
 
mhlee said:
OK. So name some knives in the $250 to $300 range where the gains are minimal compared to knives in the $175 to $200 range.
Click to expand...

okay, i'll bite - and back rodneyat's appraisal. when i went through this same process (waaay back when, a whole couple days ago) i tried really hard to get a sense of the variance in value between knives in that same general range.

the results were inconclusive at best. consensus seemed to be that product in the lower range was generally more-or-less equivalent to that of the upper band here expressed. there wasn't anything, say, in the $260-range that was pegged as a 'must-get' over a similar $160 offering. the UX10 was tagged as a 'fail-&-bail', but a dozen others running the whole gamut in this general price range were praised as worthy tools. if one was clearly superior by any measure, it wasn't mentioned. and i could see that same experience being repeated in dozens of other similar threads. just like here. again.

in addition, other threads in this site (and other sites) actually carry commentary from working chefs who basically say, "i use knives in this price category at work because of a.) damage and b.) theft concerns in an open work environment. i lust - with fevered eyes - for model X or oooo! a Y that i use at home which might price at $500 or over, but i'd never take the thing to the day job."

fine - maybe model T is more reactive, and model R hones more easily in the discerning hands of Master Shu, etc. etc. - but it's not like you're comparing Kias and Cadillacs ... more like one entry-level Benz to a 3-series BMW.

if there are models in the $250-$300 range that totally curb-stomp ones in the $150-$250 range ... why do we never hear about them? the same set of names in the $160-$240 range keeps repeating, and none get pushed as being an obviously superior foe of onions, apples, and day-old cheese. there's no substantive indication - at all - that a decent, named $160 knife (Hiro, etc) will perform so much less worthy than Model R that you should definitely pay $280 for it and ditch the Hiro if you can swing it.

... unless reactivity drives you batty to the point of murder, then $50 / $100 might be worth the price of your sanity.

unless, of course, you're fine with model X, which is less reactive and doesn't cost a dime more ....

disagree? want names? good - give us a pair. tag two blades in the $250 - $300 range that are so above par when compared to similar types in the $150-$200 range that it's worth the extra cash, hands-down, no matter who you are or what you're doing, unless you're using the things as letter-openers.
 
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