Just back from Chengdu, China

I just completed my second trip to China for cooking classes, this time in Chengdu, Sichuan China. Knife skills were a special emphasis of this school. I know many posting here favor very flat edged cleavers but I have never found that to be true in China. My instructor felt that flat edged cleavers were special purpose slicing tools but not that useful as all round Chinese cooking knives. Anyone care to defend the flat edge for Chinese cooking as opposed to Western/Japanese or whatever cuisines?

I will bite, when you flat edge do you mean straight edge like the Moritaka and Takeda cleavers?

I guess so though I haven't used either. What I have read on this forum is of users that weren't happy until they had reground this or that knife until it was a absolute straight edge. This is usually followed by negative comments about any Chinese cleaver that isn't dead straight. As far as I can tell, no one ever sent that memo to China.

Noodle Soup said:

I guess so though I haven't used either. What I have read on this forum is of users that weren't happy until they had reground this or that knife until it was a absolute straight edge. This is usually followed by negative comments about any Chinese cleaver that isn't dead straight. As far as I can tell, no one ever sent that memo to China.

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I wonder if that's due to a bias for a specific chopping or push-cutting technique that can be prone to accordion cuts with a less-than-flat blade.

My decent Chinese knife has a fair bit of curve to its edge, and I don't mind it, but I'm no expert.

The Takeda cleavers I've used were not dead-flat ... the dead-flat cleaver would be the menkiri bocho for noodles.

I personally prefer "flatter" but not dead flat. Some of the more economy ones that I've seen were definitely too rounded for my liking.

hmm my theory (and its only a theory) is cutting style and the western focus on Japanese style knives.

1. We in the west are used to flat boards, thus a flat edge wont produce accordion cuts. If I recall cutting boards in china are horizontal slices of tree trunk. A curved blade is better for a uneven board

2. KKFer's have a thing for the "magic" flat spot, perhaps when they switch to cleavers they are looking for the same feeling and thus buy flatter cleavers ?

3. Perhaps Chinese cleavers are thought of like large Nakiri's in the western/Japanese market. Nakiri's tend to be a flatter in profile then most Chinese cleavers that I have come across.

Those are my crazy theories, let me know what you think.

My guess is, we here are a hyper-specific minority of the knife world, and even those in the broader majority with the best knife skills don't obsess as much about the minutia of their knives.

dmccurtis said:

My guess is, we here are a hyper-specific minority of the knife world, and even those in the broader majority with the best knife skills don't obsess as much about the minutia of their knives.

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I'd lean toward this explanation too, but that's assuming there's something to explain outside of the mob tendencies in a closed community (i.e. there indeed is a practical reason for a flatter profile over a more curved one, and not just because one or another "authority" in this community believes it superior); and though I think being a predominantly English forum limits the cultural representation, I would not be so quick to make "East-West" contrasts (which I think are quite toxic in general).

I'm personally interested in techniques other than rocking that help take advantage of some curve. I have some knives to which I've not adapted fully (e.g. still get accordion cuts on Thai peppers and some other targets, especially with push cutting). My gut instinct is to work with a flatter edge on the board.

XooMG said:

I'd lean toward this explanation too, but that's assuming there's something to explain outside of the mob tendencies in a closed community (i.e. there indeed is a practical reason for a flatter profile over a more curved one, and not just because one or another "authority" in this community believes it superior); and though I think being a predominantly English forum limits the cultural representation, I would not be so quick to make "East-West" contrasts (which I think are quite toxic in general).

I'm personally interested in techniques other than rocking that help take advantage of some curve. I have some knives to which I've not adapted fully (e.g. still get accordion cuts on Thai peppers and some other targets, especially with push cutting). My gut instinct is to work with a flatter edge on the board.

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I think that there are indeed practical benefits to flatter profiles, and I myself prefer very flat profiles. That said, I think that we here tend to fetishize knives and knife skills, and thus self select certain styles and techniques. Note that I don't think there is anything wrong with this, but that I think we tend to be perfectionists who scrutinize past the point of mere practicality. As you say, this is a predominantly English speaking forum, and thus probably does not represent a completely accurate cross section of the knife world, but regardless, I don't think this has anything to do with East/West generalizations (which I agree, are rarely entirely useful). I think this simply shows an accurate picture of the overall knife world, where even where technique is emphasized, knife skills are not elevated to the level that we would expect them to be. A more curved profile is simply easier to use and maintain. We may frown upon it somewhat, but witness the millions upon millions of superb meals which have been prepared with what we would consider to be substandard knives. Would they have been made better if prepared with our knives?

Well said Curtis most who do a lot of cutting never think of Flex,Flats,Stiction etc.That said I prefer Japan style flatter profile gyuto's.Cleavers Thin vegetable blades flatter with slight rocker at the heel & tip,Medium & bone cleavers little more rocker.

i don't get dead flat profiles on stuff other than chinese duck slicers, japanese usuba and takohiki. why would you prefer a dead flat profile on any knife for chopping? i'm not saying a mezzaluna of a cleaver is any good but a little curve is more forgiving and practical no? i'd suppose if your technique is good with a dead flat profile chopper, you could surely do well using a knife with a slight curve to achieve the same end result.

what advantages does a dead flat profile provide?

I think you are confused Noodle. If anything a cleaver with a dead flat edge has to be re-ground to have some curve. A dead flat edge is very difficult to use, ages ago I had Dave add a touch of curve to my Takeda noodle knife for that very reason. Now there can be cleavers with waaay too much curve as well, where it's more of a mezaluna than a cleaver. Some of the new Suien's are like that. There is a happy medium based on personal preference. Me personally, if the spine is exactly parallel to the board I like about 5mm of lift at each end, with maybe a touch more at the tip than the heal. I don't read the forums much but if the "new" preference is dead flat then they are nuts. Personally I would say what the guy in China told you is correct. The really really straight ones are for single purpose delicate slicing, like my Takeda noodle knife.

Well, I don't think I'm confused Andy. And this is my second cooking trip to China along with ones to Thailand and Viet Nam in the past. What I really tend to wonder about the flat edge cleaver backers is what type of cuisine are they using their knives for? I can understand why a Chinese cleaver used for Japanese cuisine might need to be different than one used for Sichuan. My instructor's knife skills were certainly way beyond my own. He also came from a multi-generational family of Chinese restaurant chefs.

I should probably add he really thought me what "hot and numb" means in that part of China. And there are two basic types of Sichuan pepper, that was also totally new to me.

Sorry, what I meant was I think you are confused about people liking a dead flat edge. If there are any they certainly are in the minority, I'm not aware of any who like completely flat edge, but like I said, I'm not around much, maybe that's the new thing the kids are into nowadays.

Not dead flat Andy as you said even with a flatter edge profile you need a little rocker heel & tip.I have a medium cleaver I like a lot with 3mm at heel & 5mm at tip.

keithsaltydog said:

Not dead flat Andy as you said even with a flatter edge profile you need a little rocker heel & tip.I have a medium cleaver I like a lot with 3mm at heel & 5mm at tip.

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That's about the amount of curve I like too. It is flatter than most cleavers I've seen, though.