Reporting Problems with Knives - Good or Bad?

I have some questions to ask here.

It appears clear to me that while some members appreciate the unique position that I'm in to provide honest feedback on issues that I see with knifemakers (whose knives I handle by the hundreds) there are also many others who see it as mud slinging on my behalf should I say something negative.

I've testified many times over that I simply speak the truth about what I see, hoping to help fellow community members in not getting burnt, nothing more or less. I always hoped that my word would be good enough and that people could see the information for what it is but I'm often challenged by nay-sayers so I know that this isn't true. I know that a lot of people don't understand honesty (seeing in others what they themselves can not provide) and to these folks my reviews (warnings) are seen as venomous. I'm certain that my public persona/reputation is negatively affected by reporting knife (maker) problems.

Currently I'm feeling that I'm sticking my neck out for the few who want the truth just to be slit by the many who do not.


So my questions for all members are...

1. Do you like to be alerted to problems like Takeda is currently experiencing with making knives different (thicker/wedgier) than they have in the past or say a problem like Moritaka has always had (holes in the edge that pop up when sharpening)?

2. Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues?

3. Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor? Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?

4. Do you only want positive reports/reviews?

5. Is there room for negative reviews in this community?

6. If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do? Would you speak up and help someone to save their hard earned cash or sit back and keep quiet, not rocking the boat, keeping your public image in tact?


Please, any and all input is welcome.

Please keep providing us with reviews Dave. Both positive and negative. It would be a loss for this community if you didnt.

Reviews on actual products should be allowed imho.
Be it good or bad.
Meaning, this or that product handled personally.
Going after vendors/makers on a general basis is to me not wanted nor needed for a community like this.
Especially when it comes from what could be seen as competitors.

I personally never pay much attention to vendors or anyone involved in the business in any way..

Where actual info stops and agenda-driven politics begin, nobody knows.

Just my 0.02

Personally I like to be made aware of such issues. The more you know as a consumer the more of an informed decision you can make at the end of the day regarding the purchase of an item. With the internet the way we buy and sell things has changed drastically. Word spreads (both good and bad) and reviews are something that help those with less experience make a decision. Negative reviews are just as important as the positive ones.

I take each review I read with a grain of salt, simply because every single person has individual preferences. When it comes to what you write Dave I don't see it as bashing. You're being blunt with what you think. You don't sugarcoat things just to make it easier for others to hear, and I like it. We're all entitled to our opinions and I don't see any reason why you should stop voicing yours, you're not doing it to be malicious you're doing it for the right reasons of trying to educate and help out fellow forum members.

At the end of the day sometimes people might just have a different opinion based on their personal wants/needs. They don't have to agree with you but they should respect your opinion as that, your opinion. You're giving advice and if someone takes it the wrong way then that's their problem. If anything speaking up boosts your image with the people who matter IMHO. Haters gonna hate, don't take it to heart and don't worry about them.

- Steve

Your honest reviews have been soooooo helpful since I joined and are much appreciated:doublethumbsup: all reviews should be heard whether good or bad. Personally I don't think I could keep quiet about known issues if I was in your position, I guess a lot of us on here have high moral standards and might see it as a duty to pass on information, good or bad.
But if it causes unwarranted abuse/personal attacks then I guess only you can decide if it is worth the hassle you may get to keep us lot informed of any genuine issues you may come across:thumbsup:

1. Do you like to be alerted to problems like Takeda…
I'd like to see some possibility to provide feedback back to the manufacturer. While it's good to know about problems, it's much better to try preventing them in the first place. But if you wanted just a yes/no answer, then my answer would be "yes" for this question.

2. Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues?
That's only for you to decide as I don't think there could be any good strict rules.

3. Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor? Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?
I believe any truth is subjective, so revealing your truth doesn't means everyone would benefit. Some would agree, other would call you an idiot. That's just normal life.

4. Do you only want positive reports/reviews?
Yes. Though I'm pretty sure it's utopia.

5. Is there room for negative reviews in this community?
Yes. But reviewer should really strive to keep emotions negative aside. At least from my experience I know it's just too easy to drown in negative emotions loosing any remaining of common sense and objectivity.

6. If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do?
I'd make a cup of coffee and keep enjoying life You've probably done a lot of good things in life… so continue doing it.


It feels a bit weird trying to give advices to someone from the other half of globe, especially when this someone is much older and experienced person… but I just couldn't resist, sorry

Dave, I think you guys who sharpen are in the best position to notice trends related to knifemakers' workmanship and geometry issues, as you guys see a lot of knives. And you personally likely see quite a bit more than most of the sharpeners who do not make a full-time living at it. I welcome your observations of the trends, even if you do produce knives yourself.

1. Yes.
2. Nope.
3. No. You have a lot more experience than consumers and it helps consumers get the products they want.
4. Nope, best to know the good and the bad. Every knife has its pros and cons; I want to hear both and see whether imo the pros>cons
5. Definitely. Ideally, the vendors would talk to the smiths after seeing the problems you bring up and the smiths would do their best to correct it. Naive, but there's always hope.
6. Keep doing what you're doing. It's a very valuable asset to the community

My $.02: To the extent that you are perceived as in any respect a competitor of anyone whose work you criticize in some manner (no matter how well-founded or constructive), there is an appearance of conflict. That having been said, I personally believe -- based on my very limited knowledge, and as pretty much a newcomer on KKF -- that it would be a shame for you to abstain from expressing your views (positive or -- arguably even more important -- negative); I regard you and your opinions as an extremely valuable resource on this list. I think that as with almost any expressions of opinion there is often some subjectivity, however, as a matter of common sense a reader should understand that and decide for themselves how much weight to attach to what you say. In your case it is quite apparent to me that you act with great integrity, knowledge and experience, and the substance of what you express should be judged accordingly. So I would hope that you don't run to the sidelines when there is an opportunity to help many of us by sharing your wisdom. However, I would understand if you feel as if any [unwarranted] criticism by a few of your views makes you reluctant to speak out. That would, I think, be a loss for many of us.

Dave the info you provided about Takeda's knives was very helpful to me. I was planning on ordering from him but now I will wait a bit and do some more research.
Thanks,
Derek

Derek Swanson said:

Dave the info you provided about Takeda's knives was very helpful to me. I was planning on ordering from him but now I will wait a bit and do some more research.
Thanks,
Derek

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And this post would be the perfect example of why speaking up can be such a difficult task for someone like the op.

To those who haves hung around here for a while, the conflict between the op and one of the vendors of that brand has influenced this board to the extent that the very name of that vendors shop is prohibited to name here.

Where does objectivity stop and ulterior motives take over?
If at all?

I am in no way saying the op isn't 100% genuine and factual in reporting what he sees, be it good or bad.
Then again, I cannot guarantee he is, considering the back-story regarding ******* and his web-shop.

In the end though, it all comes down to Caveat Emptor and all that..

This horseshit makes it really difficult for a tyro to be sure he is getting an objective opinion, when there is a policy of not allowing a competitor's name to be mentioned, or replacing it with asterisks.

You asked for opinions ... you got mine.

I believe that the issues between myself and CKTG are part of the trouble of me speaking honestly, or how what I say is perceived. I helped to create those issues as much as the other did so I blame only us here, well and Ken too. LOL

FYI - CKTG was banned here not because of competition but because of actions/behaviors and then eventually so was his store's links blocked, he got what he deserved. If the membership deems that as an issue then bring it up to the forum owner and let them decide if they want to continue with the ban or not. I'd advise both here and in private that allowing them in would be like taking a cancer pill but it's not my business anymore so please understand that.

All that aside I ask; would my take on Takeda or Moritaka be any more valid if CKTG didn't sell those brands and say my best friend did? Could people then see that I was speaking honestly and not bashing? What if I was just a sharpener as I was for 7 yrs before? I wouldn't be competition to the maker then, would my points be easier to believe?

And for the record, I don't sell Takeda or Moritaka so I'm not a competitor to CKTG and since I don't forge village blacksmith style knives I'm not a competitor (in a direct sense) to these makers.

I'd also like to point out that I've lost a crap load of $$$ from not being able to sharpen every Moritaka that's come my way over the years and now I have to (once again) chose to be honest (with Takeda customers) or be branded (by CKTG) as someone looking to do damage to them and/or the maker. Funny thing,I bet that outside of Takeda's workers I've sharpened more of those knives than anyone else in the world and while I praised them always for being my favorite knife to sharpen I never heard a word mentioned as to me being a Takeda shill or helping Takeda too much.

I now know what the deal is, it's just that I have to decide if I should continue sharing this with the community or leave it alone because as it is I'm doing myself no favors with sharing.

What if it is a paying forum vendor?

Reede said:

What if it is a paying forum vendor?

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Tosho Knife Arts carries Takeda knives ...

Reede said:

What if it is a paying forum vendor?

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Pensacola Tiger said:

Tosho Knife Arts carries Takeda knives ...

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Well this is going to sound bad coming from me but who cares...

If you're looking for a Takeda, Tosho is where I recommend going to. Ivan knows knives, he's put in the hard hands on work to get where he is today, for those reasons I trust him 100% to make sure that you get a good knife.

You mentioned feeling like your sticking your neck out for the few, but I think it would be overwhelmingly the other way around. Most appreciate honest reviews and also respect your experience therefore your opinions

as someone who didn't know anything about knives a month ago, and who went to David to get advise, I can say 2 things.
1. the guy was honest enough to tell me he didn't know something.
2. he didn't try to push his products on me ( I didn't even know he made knives at the time).

If not for for David and others like him I wouldn't have ordered a custom, or be a member of this community still.

so I would back up your right to say whatever you want, just put out your opinions and more importantly why you arrived at them. and everyone can make up their own mind.
not every body needs to agree, but every body should be able to feel free to express an opinion

Dave Martell said:

All that aside I ask; would my take on Takeda or Moritaka be any more valid if CKTG didn't sell those brands and say my best friend did? Could people then see that I was speaking honestly and not bashing? What if I was just a sharpener as I was for 7 yrs before? I wouldn't be competition to the maker then, would my points be easier to believe?

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More credible, yes.
To me it would be just an opinion amongst others.
Well, an opinion from someone working the boards for as much cred as possible, as that is what puts food on your table at the end of the day.
As it is right now, I cannot help but allow the history to discredit what you say in regards to those products somewhat.
I'm sorry if that is offending to you, but that is how I see it.

No offense taken in any of the posts guys. I appreciate your input no matter what!

Thank you

A review from Dave is probably as credible as it gets, as he handles and sharpens probably dozens of knives a day. Who better to find grind/profile/heat treat issues?Having to pay someone a couple of hundred bucks, or if you're handy, spending several hours to fix a new knife that cost over say---$50, strikes me as ridiculous.
Since I'm not possessed of the means to be able to shrug off a $200-$500 bad knife purchase, truthful, objective reviews from a credible source are absolutely welcome in my book.

A few years ago now, Dave's observations, thoughts, and reports shared with the community were a big part of my learning process. At one point, I really did wonder if one of the disagreements that I saw at the time was really as "bad" as it seemed. I tried something from the other party, and the result was exactly as Dave's observations had been. I had in my hands something that convinced me Dave was truly calling it as he saw it, and he wasn't bashing the other side - the other side really didn't know what they were talking about. In that particular case, it wasn't just an individual saying, "My knife is fine!" but someone saying he knew his stuff and his techniques and Dave didn't.

When we can no longer say both positives and negatives, then the community will no longer be one of mutual interest in great knives but simply an echo chamber for praises and marketing hyperbole. It's the fact that folks can say what they see and experience with the knives they've got in their hands that makes the discussions and opinions here truly worth something.

There is definitely variability in the knives that we buy and use. I don't see nearly as many knives as Dave does as a sharpener, but the crazy kook that I am, sometimes I buy more than one copy of a particular knife that appeals to me. I see variability even in the small greater-than-one sample sizes that I get sometimes. Just because Dave says he's noticed a positive or negative tendency or trend with a particular line of knives or maker's knives doesn't mean that your particular sample will exhibit the same characteristics. You might get one that's great, or you might get a lemon. But really, it says something if Dave sees patterns and trends in the knives that he comes across.

Same thing goes with folks like Jon from JKI and Ivan at Tosho. They see a lot more knives than most of us ever will. If they notice something positive or something negative, it's worth paying attention.

I would say two things are important: showing or telling us the evidence (and reasoning if there's an extrapolation or deduction that comes from it), and noting when self-interest *could* be perceived as a confounding factor.

Dave, Jon and Ivan have proven themselves to be honest and to have integrity. That's a testament to the track record that they've established with the folks they've dealt with. It doesn't mean that they know everything or are perfect, but it's something to take into account along with the breadth of experience that they have when it comes to knives.

Hi,
I've never posted before. I've been shopping for a new knife for a couple of months, and I'm sure there are a hundred out there like me who've read thousands of posts on this site. I can't believe you're still catching sh88 about this. I also can't believe you're letting it bother you in the least... To me and people like me, your expertise and generosity is seen and appreciated for what it is. The respect your peers and clientele have for you is evident in hundreds of posts. I enjoy coming here and learning something. You're the dude who sees the knives. No one's paying you for this (in fact, I don't know how you manage to get any work done around there for the amount of time you spend fairy-god-fathering here). I appreciate it. I know people thank you for your input here all the time. Probably not a lot of lurkers (info gatherers maybe) come out and write you a nice thank you note out of the blue but we're out here. So; sorry, and thank you.

be cool fool.

^^ Gotta like that one. ^^

Of course many many people pay Dave to look at knives but I like the tone of the post.


Having been in the situation of sending Dave one of his own early knives, I can say that his honest assessment of knives is not limited to knives from CKTG or any specific maker. He is as brutally honest with his own work as anything he has posted about other makers.

Dave, if you start making as many knives as Moritaka and Takeda then maybe hush up a bit. As long as your business is working on other people's knives I would love to hear about it.

Chuckles said:

He is as brutally honest with his own work as anything he has posted about other makers.

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Probably more so. I know I'm my own worst critic.

I think the claims about you being bias are pretty baseless. You've always been completely honest and forthright about what you see and work on regardless of the maker or vendor. Case in point, my Takeda, which was not purchased through CKTG so no one can say your assessment of it was because of any angst you may have.

There really is no one better to report problems like this than from the very person who works on them. You're not the type of person to sit by quietly and let people waste their money on crappy knives just so you can make money off fixing them. In fact, when it was suggested that I send my Takeda to you for fixing, you were not too keen on that prospect if I recall lol. Though you would have done it if I couldn't get it worked out with the vendor or couldn't find anyone else. Which there were no shortage of volunteers <3<3

You shouldn't change who you are or how you operate just because a few grumblers.

I haven't been a member for very long although I've studied the KKF forum for quite some time. I do so because I feel there are many here that have valuable insights into expensive kitchen knives. None of us are perfect and we certainly can have bias, but there are a few members here that I trust completely for their opinions. Dave happens to be one of them. The very fact that he has had so much exposure to so many different knives is in itself valuable. Please continue to speak up when your conscious calls. Both good and bad reviews are essential to making purchasing decisions. Each of us has to sort out information from who is giving the review and make our own decisions from there.

F' the nay sayers! I have learned so much from Dave's reviews and posts, all of which has made my decision process in procuring new knifes much more educated. It is because of Dave (and others) that I continue to participate on this board and learn new stuff every day! For this I thank you. Not sure what the CKTG stuff is all about (heard a lot of different stories), but try not to get involved in it.

chibok said:

Hi,
I've never posted before. I've been shopping for a new knife for a couple of months, and I'm sure there are a hundred out there like me who've read thousands of posts on this site. I can't believe you're still catching sh88 about this. I also can't believe you're letting it bother you in the least... To me and people like me, your expertise and generosity is seen and appreciated for what it is. The respect your peers and clientele have for you is evident in hundreds of posts. I enjoy coming here and learning something. You're the dude who sees the knives. No one's paying you for this (in fact, I don't know how you manage to get any work done around there for the amount of time you spend fairy-god-fathering here). I appreciate it. I know people thank you for your input here all the time. Probably not a lot of lurkers (info gatherers maybe) come out and write you a nice thank you note out of the blue but we're out here. So; sorry, and thank you.

be cool fool.

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+1

And fwiw, Dave told me the felt strops at CKTG were garbage, but I thought I'd try one anyway, and sure enough it was a waste of money. Soft and fuzzed up like an old sweater after a few uses. Got one from Marko that is insanely better.

He complained about Takeda's grinds at a knife sharpening class when I brought one, I had just bought the knife and didnt want to hear this was why the thing was wedging even in basic veges.

Dave tells it like it is, whether you like it or not.

Dave you should definitely keep up the reviews especially the ones alerting people to problems with certain knives,makers or vendors .I find it strange that anyone would take offence with this. I have found this forum to be great source for honest oppinions on knives and everythimgrelated.as tp daves perceived personal bias against cktg I have read about some of the issues on this forum and have no personal involvement in the matter.that said as one of the unfortunate people who ventured other kitchen knife forums before ending up here and have experienced first hand the shady advertising tacticts and deliberate use of wrong information used by cktg and his affiliates.i find weird that anybody here would endorse or defend such behaviour and I for one am happy that dave and othets on this forum sayit how it is