Chinese Cleaver (Chuka) Upgrade (Stainless)

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wisew

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Hey guys!

I know, just a week ago I was posting about santokus, but I've really grown to love my Chinese cleaver. I got a Messermeister Asian Precision 8" one awhile back - not sure who in Seki makes these for Messermeister, but the F&F is outstanding on the handle. That said, it doesn't cut anywhere near as well as my Gesshin Ginga gyuto (surprise!), and it isn't all that thin behind the edge. Also the amount of food sticking when I cut is pretty hilarious, especially if I'm cutting anything small and round like a cucumber or carrot (I've lost so many pieces as they rolled straight to the floor). I'm planning on keeping it sort of as a project knife (I'm planning on rounding the spine and choil myself, and using it to practice sharpening chuka since it's a little different from gyuto).

What I really want is a really badass, stainless or semi-stainless (no carbon! not even stainless-clad carbon) chuka that has awesome geometry (preferably the kind that also has better than a snowball's chance in hell of releasing some of the food I cut).

(I use it as an all-purpose knife, but so far anyway, exclusively on vegetables and cooked meat - I will never attempt to cut even around bones with this)

In terms of profile I'm not 100% sure where I stand - I sometimes find myself wishing there were a *little* more belly in the knife, and other times I don't. So, I'm relatively agnostic when it comes to profile.

I'd like good F&F for the price - not the standard subpar F&F for most chukas.

So far I've been looking at:
  • Gesshin Ginga #6 Stainless Cleaver - This is probably the front-runner right now, although I'm not sure if I should go with western or wa-handled for a Chinese cleaver.
  • Hattori FH15 Cleaver - I really, really want to get a Hattori FH at some point, although which one I'm not sure of yet. Also this one seems really heavy.
  • Mizuno Hontanren GF-26 #6 - I know very little about Mizuno's stainless.
  • Misono 440 No.86 (seems over priced if you ask me)

What do you think?
 
There are also stainless full-size Chinese cleavers from Tojiro.
SS handle thin slicer (#6) is F-631 and wooden handle version is F-921. You can find them on eBay or Rakuten global.
FYI, there is a promotion going on at Rakuten if you make an order 10000 yen or more from one store and order it through a Japanese address forwarding service, they will cover the shipping cost up to 3000 yen.

Speaking of eBay has everyone changed your eBay password yet? If not, please do coz they were hacked so bad...
 
i have an ashi stainless cleaver and the tojiro f-631. fit and finish is great on both. of course i do like the swedish stainless more than the vg-10. i have tried no.6 size cleavers with all kinds of weight, from 380, 400, 440, 470 to 510g. 510g is still ok to work with, but i like ~440g the most.

when considering the hattori, you can also get custom cleavers in sb1 from german makers at that price point.

i would go with the ashi/gesshin, especially because they can customize pretty much everything that you desire. i love my two ashi cleavers :)
 
It's been awhile since we have had a post about cleavers.

A word of caution, the cleavers your are asking about are approximately 220 x 120. They could be significantly bigger then your current knife depending on its depth. A lot of people find that large of a knife unwieldy.

On all my cleavers, food sticks to the blade. It's just the nature of having such a tall blade.

Fit and finish on cleavers in general are rough to say the least. After grinding that big of a blade, the makers put on a handle and call it good.

Mizuno makes an excellent cleaver. I've got the carbon version. The handle was on the crude side. Fit and finish were rough. The stainless steel one is well regarded, because it is so thin. As in CCK thin.

The Forum cleaver has excellent fit and finish. The handle is one of the best on production knifes. The knife is heavy because of the handle. A heavy handle pulls the center of gravity back, which makes the knife feel more nimble. The Forum cleaver is thin behind the edge. Mine needed to be thinned just a little, to make it really perform.

I haven't gotten my hands on a Geshin Ginga cleaver. But their reputation is excellent. Jon is somebody you can buy from with confidence.

Jay
 
It's been awhile since we have had a post about cleavers.

A word of caution, the cleavers your are asking about are approximately 220 x 120. They could be significantly bigger then your current knife depending on its depth. A lot of people find that large of a knife unwieldy.

On all my cleavers, food sticks to the blade. It's just the nature of having such a tall blade.

Fit and finish on cleavers in general are rough to say the least. After grinding that big of a blade, the makers put on a handle and call it good.

Mizuno makes an excellent cleaver. I've got the carbon version. The handle was on the crude side. Fit and finish were rough. The stainless steel one is well regarded, because it is so thin. As in CCK thin.

The Forum cleaver has excellent fit and finish. The handle is one of the best on production knifes. The knife is heavy because of the handle. A heavy handle pulls the center of gravity back, which makes the knife feel more nimble. The Forum cleaver is thin behind the edge. Mine needed to be thinned just a little, to make it really perform.

I haven't gotten my hands on a Geshin Ginga cleaver. But their reputation is excellent. Jon is somebody you can buy from with confidence.

Jay

I didn't realize till just now (I actually measured) that my current cleaver is smaller than the standard size (If anyone's curious, it's about 200mm x 85mm). If I recall, it's about 304g, so I really would be jumping up a lot in weight. If I wanted one closer to the Messermeister's profile, the best bet seems like it would be a Hattori FH-15S (200mm x 108mm). I'm really not sure how I'll work with the drastic change in profile.

Bang for my buck though, the Gesshin Ginga cleaver would be fantastic - $295 vs ~$350 for all my other options. (And I think it would have the best F&F, with the Hattori beating it on the handle). It does seem to have a *lot* of belly though, the Western more than the wa-handle for some reason.

Not sure if there are any cheaper stainless cleavers though...

For comparison:
  • Gesshin Ginga #6 Stainless: $295, 223mm x 108mm, 480g
  • Hattori FH-15S: $350, 200mm x 108mm, 490g
  • Hattori FH-15: $380, 215mm x 108mm, 522g
  • Mizuno: $340 225mm x 108mm, 465g
  • Misono 440: $355, 220mm x 110mm, 530g

EDIT: I did find this Tojiro F-921, but for the life of me I can't figure out why it only has one handle rivet? (From Tojiro's website it looks like it should have 2 rivets...)
 
I'm currently borrowing some of Mike's cleavers (thanks again, Mike!), and I thought for sure I'd like the Ashi the best. However, in no time whatsoever, I've already started to prefer the feel and heft of the Sugimoto. They have terrific handles, and feel right in the hand. I know sugimoto has a stainless option, too, so I'd look there.
 
I would recommend the Tojiro F-631, they have the most comfortable handle on a clever second only to the Sugimoto. Its all stainless so its more durable then wood handled cleavers and the fit and finish is the best out of any cleaver.

Here is Andy's take on it
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/786982/
http://tojiro.net/en/products/knives_c_pro.html

I have the Thicker version (F632) and its one of my go to knives.

They are a bit hard to find but Blueway can order you one.

You would recommend the F-631 over the F-921? I was intrigued looking at the F-631, and I've read Andy's post, but I'm just really skeptical that it wouldn't be slippery if wet / slightly oily.

I'm currently borrowing some of Mike's cleavers (thanks again, Mike!), and I thought for sure I'd like the Ashi the best. However, in no time whatsoever, I've already started to prefer the feel and heft of the Sugimoto. They have terrific handles, and feel right in the hand. I know sugimoto has a stainless option, too, so I'd look there.

Hmmmmm that's interesting... although as far as I know the only stainless steel cleaver Sugimoto makes is the no. 30 which is shorter than my current cleaver (190mm), though it is taller. Unless they do customs?

What do you make of the Ashi though?
 
I have a custom Ashi Hamono cleaver that I really like. 400 grams, thin, white #2 steel, nice chunky rosewood yo handle. It was a really nice upgrade from the CCK 1303. Haven't tried the others, but I think it'd be hard to go wrong with the Gesshin Ginga.
 
You would recommend the F-631 over the F-921? I was intrigued looking at the F-631, and I've read Andy's post, but I'm just really skeptical that it wouldn't be slippery if wet / slightly oily.



Hmmmmm that's interesting... although as far as I know the only stainless steel cleaver Sugimoto makes is the no. 30 which is shorter than my current cleaver (190mm), though it is taller. Unless they do customs?

What do you make of the Ashi though?

I choke up on the blade on my cleavers so I never had any issues due to wet or oily handles, due to the height of the blade its rare for oil or water to migrate up there. If it gets too wet I just wipe it down. The blade on the Tojiro's are all the same clad VG10. The only thing that matters is if you like the rounded rectangle sugimoto-ish handle of the 631 or the wood barrel of the 921. Personalty I like the sugi-ish rectangular handle, looks better and finally Iron chef Wakiya Yūji has one in his line up :knife:

Here's a pic of mine when it was new so you can get a better idea of the handle.
PDEjTPy.jpg


One cleaver that hasn't been mentioned here is the Richmond Fanatic in AEB-L, that one might be worth a look.
 
I'm currently borrowing some of Mike's cleavers (thanks again, Mike!), and I thought for sure I'd like the Ashi the best. However, in no time whatsoever, I've already started to prefer the feel and heft of the Sugimoto. They have terrific handles, and feel right in the hand. I know sugimoto has a stainless option, too, so I'd look there.

Glad your enjoying it Tom.

One more badass cleaver to consider is a Saji, http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SPECIALS.html#Saji%20Chinese%20Cleaver. Its too rich for my blood, but boy is it bad ass...

Also another option is to speak to the bladesmith's here and see if you can commission one. I know that are far more fancier steels like R2 that traditional cleaver makers don't use.
 
For stainless cleavers Tojiro does a good job. They are comfortable in the hand & have good grinds. The geometry of your Tojiro is far better than the Richmond. Also JMO skinny octagon handles on cleavers feel like crap. With a pinch grip round barrels afford great control & comfort.
 
the f-921 has 2 rivets, just the light on the bwj pics is bad. if you turn up the contrast, you can see it.

the f-631 handle is not slippery at all.

still, id say get in contact with ashi hamono and order a customized one.

these are my cleavers

 
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone!

I'd say I'm definitely down to a Gesshin Ginga cleaver, Tojiro F-631/921 (probably 621 - if I were to get one with a standard rosewood handle it would be the Ginga), and the Hattori FH-15 (I still want one of these - but it sounds like it's maybe not as good performance-wise as the others?).

still, id say get in contact with ashi hamono and order a customized one.

I'm not sure about ordering custom direct from Ashi Hamono - where I am in my knife experience, I don't think I should be ordering any custom knives because I haven't had enough experience to really solidify my preferences. My custom order would be sort of a blind shot in the dark - at least with the Gesshin Ginga I can trust that Jon's customizations made a really good knife. Then later on (years down the road probably) I can consider a custom if I find out that one of these knives isn't quite doing it for me.

(Although I wonder... maybe I'll talk to Jon about custom ordering a Gesshin Ginga with a more rounded, Sugimoto-like handle? :spin chair:)

To give me an idea though, does anyone know what the lead time on customs from Ashi is usually like?
 
i ordered 2 custom cleavers there. first took 3 weeks to be completed, second took 4 weeks. i guess another 2 weeks shipping to germany including german customs.
 
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