The beginning..

Hello my fellow knife nutz,

:newhere:

It was time to purchase a more respectable knife for myself. After some searching and testing, I fell for the Miyabi line.

My first Gyuto 8" (Kaizen 5000DP)









Pictured above with my single man Henckel (home knife from a block set).

I actually chose this over the 5000MCD with Birchwood for ease of sharpening, and to avoid chipping (though I'm careful with my belongings). I will own an MCD soon enough.

I will update as time goes on to report how the knife performs, sharpens, and holds it's edge.

My next purchase is arriving shortly so stay posted!

I'm now seeking out an Edge Pro.. :eek2:

You should really do some more research before (not) buying the edge pro.

PushCut said:

You should really do some more research before (not) buying the edge pro.

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+1

Matus said:

+1

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+2

+ 3. For the sake of the op I will reiterate what I learned. The sharpening systems are no good for Japanese knives only thing that would work is a Japanese waterstones. Over time the system will change the knife so much as to degrade it completely. Someone more knowledgable than I will explain why it does.

Sharpening a kitchen knife is not about putting an edge on a piece of steel. It's more about restoring a previous configuration that has moved a bit towards the spine. Good sharpening should start behind the edge, and little by little, raising the spine until the very edge is reached and a burr is formed. This incessant change of the sharpening angle is not what the EdgePRO is made for.
Of course, you may just ignore the blade's geometry and simply put any edge on it, as some salesmen suggest. But eventually you'll have a nice edge, and a poor cutter.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-–-The-REAL-DEAL

Gents, I'm wondering why you say this. The Edge Pro can do very low angles, so you can thin quite well behind the edge. And then increase the angle in 2 steps until you finally reach the edge of the edge. If you want to you can even convex the resulting multi-bevel, but that's not necessary in my experience.

Interesting. Thanks for the link!

Ulrike at Henckel (JR Product Manager) said

"The total angle of the edge is about 19 (-24 including tolerances) degrees. The angle of each side of the blade is therefore half the size: 9.5 (-12) degrees."

Is he claiming the edge is symmetrical? Upon inspection it's pretty clear the edge is asymmetrical to me.

I'll have to read the rest of the thread after work. So to properly sharpen, one has to start behind the edge and work towards it? This is the step the Edge Pro fails to do?

I'll have to search for some quality stones and get practicing. It's a better skill to have under your belt anyway. I was taking the easy way out. :lol2:

Edit. Mark makes a point that I was also thinking to be reasonable. Any responses to that?

When I sharpen I use some seven different angles. It's not impossible to accomplish that with a jig based system, but changing the settings after almost every stroke is far from convenient.

miyabi said:

Ulrike at Henckel (JR Product Manager) said

"The total angle of the edge is about 19 (-24 including tolerances) degrees. The angle of each side of the blade is therefore half the size: 9.5 (-12) degrees."

Is he claiming the edge is symmetrical? Upon inspection it's pretty clear the edge is asymmetrical to me.

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No, I am fairly certain it is symmetrical.

I believe it's rather Henckels' marketing strategy not to deter left-handed buyers. In their communication they even state that the blade -- not the edge -- is symmetric, which is highly unlikely. Not so sure whether the edge claim does correspond to any reality.

I understand the possible marketing strategy, and if they are mis-stating the facts it certainly wouldn't be the first time some manufacturer intentionally or unintentionally made a misrepresentation -- but nevertheless FWIW they do in fact say that the blade is symmetric.

On Miyabi's website it does say "Knife with symmetric blade" for all of their lines. However the right side edge looks like a much steeper angle. I don't have a camera good enough to picture it, or I would show you guys.

I sent another message to Ulrike with hopes of getting more precise angles.

Would Henckels' tolerance be transgressed if their Japanese sharpener applies 9.5 degree on the right side, and 14.5 on the left, which are common figures with a gyuto. Perhaps a question for Frau Ulrike.

You folks are too judgmental. If the man wants to get a Edge Pro, gosh darn it let the man get an Edge Pro. He will either love it or hate it. Experience is the best teacher. Where would the culinary world be if people didn't waste money from time to time.

Chef Doom said:

You folks are too judgmental. If the man wants to get a Edge Pro, gosh darn it let the man get an Edge Pro. He will either love it or hate it. Experience is the best teacher. Where would the culinary world be if people didn't waste money from time to time.

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This is not exclusive to the culinary world, this is valid for the history of mankind!

I'm sure retailers of jig systems with their plethora of special stones, films, strops, strop loads etc. will welcome your point of view. The same guys who don't hesitate to advice a Misono to a left-handed and tell him to sharpen it as a German knife.

Well, Ulrike said.

"Generally, the knives do have a symmetric blade. Since the honing is done by hand there might be a slight difference between the sides, but that should not be too much.
You will do fine when using the 9.5-12° angle for each side when sharpening the knives, no worries."

So it's a tough decision. I don't want to re-angle the edge. A few good stones will cost less than an Edge Pro. This knife wasn't that expensive, so I think I'll learn to sharpen it free hand. I'm going to talk to a co-worker about this. He sharpens his own knives on stones, Miyabi included. If I can master it on this, I can move on to the other Miyabi lines and Japanese knives in general.

miyabi, although I'm pretty new to Japanese knives and sharpening, FWIW I completely agree with the advice you've received so far not to get an Edge Pro but instead learn to hand sharpen -- BUT if you want to try an Edge Pro, for comparison, I have an old (but nevertheless fairly complete, as far as the stones included) Edge Pro Professional kit, so if you'd like to borrow it let me know and I can ship it to you (I'd ask you to pay the round trip shipping, however, and it's a bit heavy). Not sure where you're located. I'm in Philly.

Just to say that before I entered the (expensive) world of Japanese cutlery I did get a sharpening system (for well more than $100) - I have since given it to my father. It was not bad, but had problems to work really acute angles (less than 15deg was a problem as the blade clamp was getting in the way). It is much mor enjoyable to sharpen with stones anyway

I wold also like to mention that those coming from the world of outdoor/camping (or nordic) knives use sharpening systems very often (or DMT diamond plates of some sort). In fact if you check out the place like britishblades.com you will find out that water stones are mentioned rather rarely. And I am not that surprised - outdoor knives have much thicker blades and use much less acute angles. At the same time clad blades are uncommon, most are mono steels - not rarely made of materials that like to 'resist' sharpening. So a system with set of diamond stones may make sense. Also - a small double sided DMT stone is much easy to carry outside without the need to worry about it braking or needing days to dry after use.

larrybard said:

miyabi, although I'm pretty new to Japanese knives and sharpening, FWIW I completely agree with the advice you've received so far not to get an Edge Pro but instead learn to hand sharpen -- BUT if you want to try an Edge Pro, for comparison, I have an old (but nevertheless fairly complete, as far as the stones included) Edge Pro Professional kit, so if you'd like to borrow it let me know and I can ship it to you (I'd ask you to pay the round trip shipping, however, and it's a bit heavy). Not sure where you're located. I'm in Philly.

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That's a generous offer Larry, I appreciated it. I'm up north, so shipping could become pricey each way. I may take you up on it though!

Matus said:

Just to say that before I entered the (expensive) world of Japanese cutlery I did get a sharpening system (for well more than $100) - I have since given it to my father. It was not bad, but had problems to work really acute angles (less than 15deg was a problem as the blade clamp was getting in the way). It is much mor enjoyable to sharpen with stones anyway

I wold also like to mention that those coming from the world of outdoor/camping (or nordic) knives use sharpening systems very often (or DMT diamond plates of some sort). In fact if you check out the place like britishblades.com you will find out that water stones are mentioned rather rarely. And I am not that surprised - outdoor knives have much thicker blades and use much less acute angles. At the same time clad blades are uncommon, most are mono steels - not rarely made of materials that like to 'resist' sharpening. So a system with set of diamond stones may make sense. Also - a small double sided DMT stone is much easy to carry outside without the need to worry about it braking or needing days to dry after use.

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Thanks for everyone's input. I do agree a stone could become enjoyable. I should add, I'll be practicing on my cheaper Henckel before the Miyabis. Though it'll be a different experience for each.

Got a Miyabi 6000MCT today (7"). The edge on this one does look symmetric. Love the handle as well!













Soon going to need a knife roll amongst other things.

Benuser said:

I'm sure retailers of jig systems with their plethora of special stones, films, strops, strop loads etc. will welcome your point of view. The same guys who don't hesitate to advice a Misono to a left-handed and tell him to sharpen it as a German knife.

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No, those are two different situations. Maybe he doesn't want to learn to free hand. Maybe he doesn't want to go through the waiting period of having someone else sharpen his knives for him. Just because I wouldn't step foot in a McDonald's unless I need to urinate doesn't mean I would look down on a person if that is their fast food haven.

By remark was addressed to those who advice and sell a clearly unappropriate jig system to buyers of Japanese knives. Of course the OP is perfectly free in his choice, but he should know about the disinformation some unscrupulous salesmen are spreading.

I understand. It's not like I was trying to be rude. I was just...trying to be rude. :tease:

Let me ask a question in a different way. Hypothetically, what would you advice a person who is elderly that is knew to J-Knives that has arthritis in both hands just bad enough that they can prepare some meals in short bursts but free hand sharpening is out of the question?

Chef Doom said:

I understand. It's not like I was trying to be rude. I was just...trying to be rude. :tease:

Let me ask a question in a different way. Hypothetically, what would you advice a person who is elderly that is knew to J-Knives that has arthritis in both hands just bad enough that they can prepare some meals in short bursts but free hand sharpening is out of the question?

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Not so sure it's that relevant, but OK: I would suggest a relatively soft European carbon knife -- e.g. a K-Sabatier, a Robert Herder --
to be maintained by frequent very light stropping on Cr2O3 at a high angle, and annual pro sharpening. Or a Misono Swedish under a comparable regimen.

Okay...I was not expecting such a thought out intelligent answer. Touche good sir. Touche.

You're a good sport, Chef Doom.

No Miyabi love :lol2:

Got the Shun roll. Won't be my only, but it's a good starter:



*Insert cringe*



Another Gyuto coming soon.

I'm looking at more authentic Japanese knives now. Still seeking Miyabi, but also Richmond, Anryu, Fujiwara, Itto-Ryu, Konosuke, and various other names.

First things first though, order whetstones and get to perfecting my skills..