Edge pro and Japanese knives?

In another thread, where someone wrote he considered getting an Edge Pro, he was adviced against this by many people.

I sharpen my Japanese knives freehand, but I'm a pretty lousy freehand sharpener and was considering to get an Edge Pro. (Yes I know I should train more and learn free-hand sharpening better, but that aside.)

Why do people advice against the Edge Pro? As far as I know it can do very acute angles, so it could be used for thinning a knife. Fully convexing an edge might be a bit more difficult, but creating a multi-bevel edge seems pretty easy. Just start thinning at the lowest angle, then raise the angle a little bit, sharpen that, etc. until you reach the edge of the edge and do the final sharpening.

Interested why I should (not) get an Edge Pro.

From my use of edge pro - it has problems with stability with big knives unless mounted on a base, getting stones at a reasonable price in Europe is close to impossible and it is much slower than freehand you cover 5-7 times more area on a stone with a single stroke. Also you can make strokes bigger.

Disclaimer - free sharpening newbie.

If I am not mistaken, the edge pro is going to give you 15 degrees minimal angle per side what may be fine for some micro bevel (or close to what symmetrical honesuki would have as primary bevel), buy probably not acute enough to maintain the geometry of the edge over long time. That is AFAIK only possible with freehand sharpening with stones of some sort. Of course you may use some sort of sharpening system (edge pro is one out of many), but sooner or later the knife will need to get professional work on thinning and resetting the edge bevel.

On the philosophical side - to make Japanese knives requires skill - and so does free hand sharpening. Most of us appreciate the process of learning how to free hand sharpen, 'feel' the knife in you hand and on the stone, learning a bit more about it as our skills (slowly) improve, shaping the knife to way we want it to be. With edge pro - your skill between after first 30 minutes and 2 years will not change much. That is at least my personal experience.

I have used an edge pro for about a year and have recently switched to freehand. An edge pro will allow you to get a very keen edge on your knives right out of the gate. When it comes to large kitchen knives that's about the only plus I can think of. Now for the cons...
Because it guides off of the side of the blade a tapered spine will cause your bevel angle to change.

You can basically only sharpen about a four inch section at a time then you have to lift and move the blade (if you try to do a slow continuous slide you'll scratch the side of your blade all to hell). This sectional sharpening can result in 'holes' in your edge over time.

As you can only go down to a little under 10deg angle it's useless for thinning.

In addition to flattening the stones you have to keep them an even thickness or it will cause your angle to change through the length of the stroke.

It takes much longer then free hand.

Having said all this I still wouldn't say that I regret having bought one, but if I was to do it again I would spend the money on a nice set of stones instead. Even if you're not very good when you start, you'll still be able to put a decent edge on your blades, and there aren't really any mistakes you can make that aren't fixable.

If you do decide to pick one up I advise that you don't go crazy and use every grit stone and polish strip available every time you sharpen a knife. Choose your stones the same way you would if you were doing it free hand. Only use a coarse stone to set a new bevel or make repairs, other wise start in the 1000-2000 range, then a 4000-6000 stone. A lot of people like to stop there or you can finish up with an 8000 stone. I recommend you strop free hand, it just seems to work better then trying to do it with the edge pro.

Hope this helps,
Mikey

I 'free-handed' for years and consider myself 'ok-ish'. Then I got an EP, and then went back to free-hand....and by "Japanese knives" I hope you mean gyuto and suji, not deba and yanagi...i.e. we're not talking about traditional single bevel blades.
IMHO, as someone who use both methods....a few of the pros & cons mentioned above are "meh" to me, not really either pro or con. First - if you are really falling into the OCD knife junkie group you just won't be satisfied with the EP, but in my experience the one reason to skip the EP is this...it doesn't really save time, it doesn't mean you don't have to 'learn' to sharpen and it doesn't really give a better result.
If you have never freehanded, and you don't want to fall into the sharpening stone OCD pool, and just want a consistently good edge, the EP is great. And it does have it's own learning curve.
But if you already have experience with free handed sharpening, you will be as good if not better at sharpening by simply practicing your freehand vs. practicing with the EP. And freehand tends to be both more convenient and faster. Just my $0.02

Yeah. A lot of what's been said is true. The edge pro is good for some stuff but it won't take metal away from the area behind the edge. It also won't blend very well so you end up with a wedging problem if you don't have a natural laser. It's a pretty basic tool that you can grow out of. But it's not a useless tool

I have an Edge Pro Apex I started with, that now has no more use since I learned how to free hand. While the Pro model of the Edge Pro is supposed to have an attachment to allow you to thin out knives the Apex only goes down to about 7 degrees per side and as mkriggen has mentioned, is useless for for thinning knives. Once you get used to the flexibility of free hand sharpening, that Edge Pro will feel like a straitjacket. Also as mentioned, you can't use an Edge Pro with a single bevel Japanese knife. Check out the japaneseknifeimports sharpening videos on youtube. It's not that hard once you give it a try.

Been using an edge pro for about 6 months now. Picked up a few tricks. Still learning to free hand and can make a knife sharp but no where near as nice as with the jig.

If you want to go more acute than the standard setup will allow you can prop up the blade with some kind of shim below it. i'm reworking the blade road on a CCK and i'm using a paint stirring stick taped to it to give me the angle I wanted.

You can avoid the scratching when sliding the knife by taping up the side of the knife with blue painters tape. You want to be careful to lay down the tape perfectly flat so you don't introduce any bumps or creases.

I also use the tape in order to mark points where i will align the knife to the edge pro. so that i can remove the knife to flip and repeatably place it back in the same spot. I put a line down the center of the edge pro spacer (white thingie). Then put marks on my knife where i want to setup my alignment points.

Good Luck!

Edge Pro is not all bad. I tried freehanding for a bit (before I found this forum) and then ended up getting the Edge Pro. That satisfied my need for precise angles that I felt I wanted at the time. Now I have been getting back into freehanding and am not so uptight about precise angles anymore. For me it was a good beginner/intermediate step as I work on sharpening skills, but now I am moving back into the freehand realm. In the end both methods can give good results, but freehanding seems to involve a bit more artistry.

BTW the skinny edge pro stones can do a great job on chisels and plane blades if you are into woodworking tools.

The stones are small, the jig is expensive. For the same price as the jig you could get three stones that are longer lasting and more effective. The Edge Pro is really a nice product intended for 3-6 inch blades. Kitchen knives are better suited for full sized stones.

Can anyone tell me how low the Edge Pro can go in terms of sharpening angles? I read 15 degrees, 7 and thought I had seen videos where it was close to 0. Why won't it remove metal right behind the edge?

I have also read 10 degrees elsewhere -- I'm sorry; that's not too helpful -- but I suppose as a workaround you could always put a shim between the blade and the base and further reduce the angle to virtually zero.

Found this, where someone approached the angle issue rather carefully, and concluded that the lowest angle at which the EP could be set was 7.16 degrees -- but then pointed out that it could be further reduced with a "riser block."
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/794815/

I own one. For sharpening angles it can go as low as you want, though as other posters mentioned if you want to go to zero (abrade the whole face of the blade) you would need to use a shim under the knife. The post where the sharpening arm is secured and adjusted has reference dots at some points, but you do not have to use those reference points. It can thin behind the edge and can be used for very acute angles.

However it does end up being a good deal of fuss and bother. Pulling out the 1000/6000 combo stone and freehanding any angle you want is much faster.

Without a riser I can get my edge pro pro to around 6 deg

Mingooch said:

Without a riser I can get my edge pro pro to around 6 deg

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Thanks! Also to other ppl indicating their lowest angles.

Is this enough for thinning knives?

i thin at roughly 2-5 degrees depending on the knife

It was a great tool in the beginning. But I too grew out of it. Ex-Edge Pro freehander here. I have to say... use of the Edge Pro gave me amazing edges. However, I don't need mind-blowing amazing. I need functional.

YES
Weather its the APEX version (10 deg) or the PRO version (6 deg), its low enough for thinning....UNLESS you are the person who wants to thin at 4 deg and sharpen at 6 deg, then this probably isn't the right tool for you. But if you just want really sharp [western style] style knives sharpened at 'normal, functional' angles, the EP is a great tool

EP or freehand, either way, if you spend 25 hours sharpening over the next year (2hrs / month x 12 months) you will be better at sharpening, and have sharper knives than 99% of the planet. And the EP will probably get you closer to 'really sharp' after just 2 hrs. But you will never be the keynote speaker at the "Freehand Only" sharpeners convention.

mark76 said:

Thanks! Also to other ppl indicating their lowest angles.

Is this enough for thinning knives?

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Actually NO. If you own an EdgePro and look at the jig set to it's minimum angle (without using blocks to raise the knife spine) and set the knife on the rest, you'll know right away that there is no way you can call it thinning. Thinning is done at very low angles, for example 2-5 degrees like Jon mentioned. I personally would not call 5 degrees thinning unless you have a machete or an axe.

Basically, we hate the edge pro, it just doesnt work as good as my two hands. If you cant free hand then its fine I guess.

It's interesting to read all the negativity surrounding any sharpening system other than freehand on the boards. I started free handing when I was seven years old and continued to do that until in my late 40's. I could produce hair popping edges and it was/is relaxing and soothing to the soul. That said, a couple years ago I acquired a Spyderco Sharpmaker and that was great, and still is, for putting a quick edge back on my knifes (kitchen, hunting, and EDC). Last year my wife bought me an EP and it is very nice. I use it to get the exact bevel back on the blades after the free handing and Sharpmaker eventually modify the bevel.

The EP works very well, albeit slowly, putting a precise bevel on the blade that you cannot achieve no matter how good you are free handing. With free handing you learn to feel the bevel and the perfect touch to tease out that scary sharp edge. With the EP, or other systems, they put that perfect bevel back into play that is necessary to keep your edges in optimal shape.

Between the EP, Sharpmaker and free handing, I keep all my knives hair shaving sharp. For relaxation, nothing beats hearing and feeling the blade run back and forth over a nice Arkansas stone. For a quick edge touch up, the Sharpmaker is awesome; and for getting those bevels back to the original angles, the EP gets the job done.

usmchawk said:

It's interesting to read all the negativity surrounding any sharpening system other than freehand on the boards. I started free handing when I was seven years old and continued to do that until in my late 40's. I could produce hair popping edges and it was/is relaxing and soothing to the soul. That said, a couple years ago I acquired a Spyderco Sharpmaker and that was great, and still is, for putting a quick edge back on my knifes (kitchen, hunting, and EDC). Last year my wife bought me an EP and it is very nice. I use it to get the exact bevel back on the blades after the free handing and Sharpmaker eventually modify the bevel.

The EP works very well, albeit slowly, putting a precise bevel on the blade that you cannot achieve no matter how good you are free handing. With free handing you learn to feel the bevel and the perfect touch to tease out that scary sharp edge. With the EP, or other systems, they put that perfect bevel back into play that is necessary to keep your edges in optimal shape.

Between the EP, Sharpmaker and free handing, I keep all my knives hair shaving sharp. For relaxation, nothing beats hearing and feeling the blade run back and forth over a nice Arkansas stone. For a quick edge touch up, the Sharpmaker is awesome; and for getting those bevels back to the original angles, the EP gets the job done.

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I've owned an EP for years and consider myself an expert on it. I completely agree with your statement but leaving an EP edge on your knife will hinder cutting. For the same reason you stated, crisp bevel, it leaves a shoulder between the primary and secondary bevel that will catch as you cut food. Sure you could continually adjust the EP. Then you'll be destroying your crisp bevel with lots of little bevels with sharp shoulders.

Anyone interested in and EP I've got one loaded for sale. PM please.

So if the EP leaves a sharp shoulder between the primary and secondary bevels, how does hand sharpening eliminate the shoulder?

You can blend the shoulder freehand or create convex bevels and hamaguriba edges. None of that is possible with an EP.

tim37 said:

So if the EP leaves a sharp shoulder between the primary and secondary bevels, how does hand sharpening eliminate the shoulder?

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The slight (or large for some of us) variation in the sharpening angle caused by natural hand wobble prevents the sharp shoulder from developing. You don't have to do it intentionally, it just happens.

Thanks to all for comments about Edge Pro. My only problem with free hand, (er . . . with cheaters), is the time it takes. Still I'm curious about EP.

I have an edge pro, but I have not used it in a long time. I never used it on my japanese knives. I tried on a wusthof 8" and it took forever. I used it on tools like a ka-bar I used for everything and pocket knives. Its not a bad device, but I'd rather spend time learning to freehand instead of using my edge pro.

I use both an edge pro and freehand. AM getting to be OK at freehanding double bevel knives and I take my edge pro pro out only for certain special uses, but for those it is far preferable to freehanding for me.

So a couple of comments:

0. Freehanding is more fun for me once I got the hang of it..
1.Even with the Pro model you can't use it for thinning really. You can make a really low angle to be sure but you can't really thin up the edge the correct amount
2. Edge pro stones are ridiculously cheap not expensive if you roll you own. You buy some aluminum strips from home depot and a can of Scotch Super 77 then you go gaga at a shop like MoldShop tools and you can buy lots of cool stones including the ones supplied for the EP there at a fraction of the cost, if you buy an angle guide then, you can get thicker ones that last more or less forever.

So where does an edgepro still rule for me?

1. I *always* use the Edge Pro to reset initial bevels on asymmetric knives. If you have a knife with a 60/40 grind say but want to lower it, it is really tricky to get the initial bevels right on stones. In fact, I find it very hard to imagine anyone below a super expert being able to make an completely accurate 60/40 angle say on a knife when lowering the angle to say 8 degrees on one side and 12 degrees on the other, you'll get close but I'll make it perfect with my edge pro. And then I can relatively easily follow the initial angles I created freehand by "feeling" the knife on a stone or using the magic marker trick. The results are better than freehanding alone at least for me.
2. Amusingly enough, except for thinning (and come to think of it, i don't think I have ever thinned a paring knives, seems a strange idea , I always do paring knives, swiss army knives etc. on the edgepro. I hate what trying to do a paring knife or other small knife on a stone does to my somewhat arthritic hands, but that may be me.
3. Edgepros are also an awesome gateway drug, the idea of being able to make a knife so sharp with almost no skill needed for the first approximation to getting pretty darn good results, to be able to lower the angles, make microbevels etc and retiring my electric knife eater is what turned me on to knife sharpening and buying way too many knives!

gic said:

You buy some aluminum strips from home depot and a can of Scotch Super 77 then you go gaga at a shop like MoldShop tools and you can buy lots of cool stones including the ones supplied for the EP there at a fraction of the cost

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What do you use to cut the stones? I don't live in the USA, so I don't know what MoldShop is.