Inexpensive knives to teach myself hand sharpening with

Hello everybody,

I'm beginning to learn hand sharpening. From reading countless threads I gathered that most important first step would
be achieving consistent burr along the length of the edge. I tried two knives, both stainless. First is $2 chef's knife (Victorinox Fibrox clone),
and I failed to produce any burr to speak of, hard as I tried. Another is ~$25 decent looking no-brand. 10-15 strokes on 1000 Chosera
stone was enough to raise a (smallish, but perceptible) burr.

So, which knife/steel with decent feedback can be recommended to a beginner sharpener?

Have a good day.

Carbon opinel

Mora - hardened to 58 HRC. And 15 euro for a knife.

Welcome aboard! Any basic carbon steel blade. Old Hickory, Robert Herder, carbon Sabatier...
Cheap soft stainless can be very difficult to get sharp. Only possible with very coarse stones and huge pressure. Don't try it with your good Chosera.

riba said:

Carbon opinel

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I just love it. Going to order one.

Lizzardborn said:

Mora - hardened to 58 HRC. And 15 euro for a knife.

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Thank you very much. This is one beautiful knife (I mean Mora Classic 1 in particular).

So, bottom line is that carbon steel in general is better to develop one's feel and touch, right?

Benuser said:

Welcome aboard! Any basic carbon steel blade. Old Hickory, Robert Herder, carbon Sabatier...
Cheap soft stainless can be very difficult to get sharp. Only possible with very coarse stones and huge pressure. Don't try it with your good Chosera.

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Thank you.

And with regards to cheap soft stainless: ironically, they seem to be better left for a professional to deal with (and the edge won't hold for a week. Very Zen, but
I'm not there yet and have to care of the stones too).

I would not start with Opinel. Small knives and especially folders are harder to sharpen in my opinion compared to something 160mm+

Also, learning on cheap stainless steel knives is totally OK. You wont get mind blowing results, but you need to learn the technique and develop angle holding muscle memory and any knife will do.

I tend to agree about the folders. A large blade is easier. About the cheap stainless: large carbides make things much more complicated, especially deburring.

The first knives that I practiced sharpening on were just my old stainless steel knives that I had laying around. I don't recommend this as a starting point; soft stainless steel simply doesn't get sharp and it is an exercise in frustration while you try to figure out what you are doing wrong.

I'd start with an Old Hickory cleaver since it's cheap (~$20), straight and the carbon sharpens up easily. I'd then move on to a knife with a little more curve, an Old Hickory slicking knife (~$10) and then move on to something with a more serious curve, and Old Hickory butcher's knife (~$10). That will progress you through the feel of holding an angle and keeping that angle through a curve. There's a good chance that OOTB the Old Hickory knives will have a crap wide bevel that you can use to learn how to flatten a bevel and thin behind the edge as well.

After that, I'd switch to a cheap bolsterless stainless steel. You'll have to sharpen at a more obtuse angle, and don't expect it to get nearly as sharp, and it will create a nasty burr that will be hard to remove. It's useful for practice reducing a burr and deburring because they are such a pain. The Old Hickory knives will be useful after you are done using them for practice; this one won't be.

After that, you will be well set to start on a better double-bevel knife, although you will need to learn nuances that come with each geometry; a Suisin Inox Gyuto is slightly different from a Takeda, but you will have the basics of holding an angle, forming a burr and removing it.

Single bevel knives are a completely different story. I oersonally need to get a practice Usaba one of these days, but I have no use for any single-bevel knives.

CompE, thank you for sharing. I figured it must be either my complete lack of sensitivity - after good ten minutes of rubbing one side
I wasn't able to tell which side was it by simply touching the edge - or there's something the matter with the steel. And, yes, it was
the plan to start with something straight, and, once hand position is more or less established, then curves. As for the cheap stainless -
not before I get to the next level (or the microscope I've ordered for the purpose arrives). Otherwise it is, like you said is an exercise
in frustration. The difference between $2 knife and $25 one - which is more like $15, I suspect - is simply amazing.

Another good option is to get a coarser grit waterstone to sharpen all those cheap stainless knives with. Something like a Gesshin 400 or Shapton Glass Stone 500 grit stone is a good place to start. You should have no trouble getting a burr with those. Then you can practice on the blunt stainless knives of your family and friends.

WingKKF said:

Then you can practice on the blunt stainless knives of your family and friends.

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Yes, that's how I envisioned my first step on the path to sharpening glory too. And I have 400 Chosera. And I was able to
get both my kitchen knives (more on the way) considerably sharper without any major screwups. I also got my first revelation,
namely that most people never experienced cutting with sharp knife in their lives. Wow. I saw people spending literally tens of
thousands on kitchen furniture, pots and such. And then they cook with blunt knives. We, people, are funny species.

Yes, that's how I envisioned my first step on the path to sharpening glory too. And I have 400 Chosera. And I was able to
get both my kitchen knives (more on the way) considerably sharper without any major screwups. I also got my first revelation,
namely that most people never experienced cutting with sharp knife in their lives. Wow. I saw people spending literally tens of
thousands on kitchen furniture, pots and such. And then they cook with blunt knives. We, people, are funny species.

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+1, I am pretty sure the above sums up many people first steps!

Sounds like you are on your way just the desire to learn will get you there. You can also find older cheap carbon blades on E-Bay. Japan woodworker has some smaller carbon blades that sharpen quite easy.

When first learning to sharpen beginning on cheap stainless is not a good idea. Cheap carbon much better you see results quickly if your technique is good. Burr removal much easier. It is good to have steel properties on your side so you do not give up in frustration :dazed:

Practicing on cheap stainless is a good start actually, it adds extra challenge so that you have to be more mindful in what you're doing. It's more important to know how to sharpen cheap stainless steel because the majority of the knives you will encounter are these, from friends or families. It's the most common thing you will need to sharpen a lot.

Depends on how cheap the stainless. Many are very dull & take work to establish an edge. Not exactly in the favor of someone just learning.

I first learned to sharpen on Forschners which is decent stainless. When I got into carbons I loved the way they sharpened.

I know some believe that starting with junk steel if you succeed than your skills can tackle anything. I sharpen a lot of stainless steel for others, have a system for it so do not waste too much time on crappy knives.

You have to be mindful when starting sharpening with any knives if you want to be successful. I enjoy teaching freehand. Most of the cooks in the field I have taught now have quality stainless or carbon Gyuto's.

At the KCC culinary school where I teach freehand the school sells kits at the bookstore. The older students got the Victorinox fibrox set with a chef bag. Now they got a better deal more items in the bag on bottom of the line Mercers wt. Hrt in the low 50's. They are harder to sharpen than the Victorinox, thick behind the edge soft steel. I am getting the school to change back to the better kit.

Quite a few have Shuns because they get a large discount. I find the VG-10 steel easy to sharpen. Others on my reccom. have gotten knives like Fujiwara, Tojiro DP, Suisin Inox, Carbonext, Hiromoto AS, Gesshin Uraku, Kohetsu AS. A few have purchased even higher quality Gyuto from the sites I provide.

Keeping a steady spine, creating an even burr, blended primary & secondary bevels removing burr much prefer good steel & they learn faster too.

LKH9 said:

It's more important to know how to sharpen cheap stainless steel because the majority of the knives you will encounter are these, from friends or families. It's the most common thing you will need to sharpen a lot.

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The idea is to eliminate as many unknowns as possible to make my first steps easier and let me build some confidence. Then I'll dance from there.
I know I'm looking forward to plenty of low quality stainless and will surely get to this as soon as my skill builds at least a little.

The knives on their way to be my first lab pets: Victorinox Chef's, Mora Classic, Opinel (the former two not being exactly kitchen knives, but carbon steel and I just loved
them. Both will make for a very nice and inexpensive present, too), and some $25 Japanese carbon Santoku. Maybe should've gone a bit higher. Decent Japanese knives
(VG-10 in particular) seem to start in the ballpark of $50-60. OK, next time.

Would I be in US, Old Hickory is a very good option. A whole bunch of used ones can be found on ebay for $20 or so.
And restoring an abandoned tool is an added bonus. But unfortunately shipping charges are prohibitively high.

Are there any stores near you that sell used/antique items? You might be able to find old carbon knives there. That's what I started with, and it gave me the confidence to sharpen my nice stuff without worry. I also found some chipped and damaged blades that were good for practicing edge and tip repair. Now I fix knives for friends who ding theirs up without worrying I'll make them worse, hah.

It sounded like your original issue was generating a consistent burr, not removing the burr you created, regardless of the kind of steel you're sharpening. If you're still having trouble raising a burr, maybe re think the angle you're sharpening at.

It sounded like your original issue was generating a consistent burr, not removing the burr you created, regardless of the kind of steel you're sharpening. If you're still having trouble raising a burr, maybe re think the angle you're sharpening at.

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Ya, you can get any steel razor sharp if the angle is right, the only difference is the edge retention between stainless and carbon. Stainless steel is a bit harder to grind though, I feel.

I just sharpened a totally dull KIWI brand petty knife, cheap stainless steel, now it's paper-slicing sharp!

Isn't paper considered to be just a starting point for a knife sharpness?

Lizzardborn said:

Isn't paper considered to be just a starting point for a knife sharpness?

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Never heard of the above. It all depends on the type of paper, angle you cut the paper with, push or pull cut, the sound it makes while cutting the paper and ease of movement, etc. The more you test using the same method (paper, hair, finger, whatever) the better understanding of the results you get.

Lizzardborn said:

Isn't paper considered to be just a starting point for a knife sharpness?

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When your knife can slice through a piece of A4 paper/newspaper without any difficulty and without using any strength, it's more than enough for cutting food. Only sashimi knives need that extreme hair-popping sharpness, that kind of sharpness is not durable on general purpose knives.

When you can push-cut A4 paper, that sharpness you can also shave your hair with.

And, you can easily detect the dull parts of your knives' edge if it doesn't go through the paper smoothly.

My method of testing for sharpness is by feeling it with finger 1st, feel the burr, remove burr and strop on a piece of cardboard, when it feels sharp on the finger tips, try it on paper finally.

Mrmnms said:

It sounded like your original issue was generating a consistent burr, not removing the burr you created, regardless of the kind of steel you're sharpening. If you're still having trouble raising a burr, maybe re think the angle you're sharpening at.

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This is exactly right. As a matter of fact, this is so right, that I asked myself "How on earth does he know that I can't get burr?". Because just today I got a new microscope, and was able to see what is that I am achieving exactly myself. Here's the result of vigorous rubbing on the Chosera 400 with ~40x magnification(bevel is about 1mm wide).



I seem to be hitting the angle (checked with marker). Chosera 400 is rumored to be an aggressive cutter. So it is either steel breaks off(??) or my hands wobble too much. I am pretty sure though that it can't be that bad with the hands. I might be not able to hold the angle, but maybe to the extent of several degrees or so. Another thing is that I feel something biting a bit on one side with my fingers, but not on the other. Very weird. And heavy pressure eats the stone fast.

nerologic said:

Are there any stores near you that sell used/antique items? You might be able to find old carbon knives there. That's what I started with, and it gave me the confidence to sharpen my nice stuff without worry. I also found some chipped and damaged blades that were good for practicing edge and tip repair. Now I fix knives for friends who ding theirs up without worrying I'll make them worse, hah.

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Although I'm pretty sure all I'd find there would be same Chinese stainless, but old and twisted too, but one never knows. Good idea, I'd give it a try next weekend.

cabarete_cub said:

Another thing is that I feel something biting a bit on one side with my fingers, but not on the other. Very weird.

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Umm, that is the definition of a burr. I hope you are not expecting to see a line of metal to the side.

The bottom "line" at your picture (the one 1mm thick) awfully close resemble the burr.

cabarete_cub said:

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I may be very wrong here, but I'm seeing rather polished edge and raw scratches above the edge… which makes me think that you don't hit edge at all while sharpening.