Yanagi is not 100% straight, ok?

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Ruso

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May be this is stupid but I am new to Yanagibas, I would like to hear more experienced opinions.
I just received my first yanagiba few hours ago. Even though I really like the feel and looks of it; I am not sure it's up to "standard". My impression was that with the length of 270mm it's should be pretty much flat, no bends.
However this one at about 2/3rds of the blade starts to bend upwards. The highest point is about 1.5 millimeters of the base. I was wondering if this is normal or should I bring it up with the vendor/craftsman. Will this affect the performance?

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Thanks for quick reply Jon.
I followed up with the seller in regards...
 
lol... i was worried it was from me for a second. These things happen sometimes. They arent the end of the world. However, after a few years now, i've seen many people make the mistake of thinking fixing bends and warps like this are easy. It takes a lot of skill and experience to do well, so please make sure that whomever is doing this for you has that training, skill, and experience.
 
I have seen this kind of issue(?) with single-bevel knives. My tadatsuna honyaki yanagi is like that and masamoto ks hon deba is like that as well. I did not have any performance related issues with the knives because of it. Don't know if it's a real issue either.
When I looked at the knives carefully, it's not bent nor warped. It's just how they were ground.
It appeared that, when grind was done for tapering of the thickness of blade, it's done with backside rather than front side toward the tip.
 
Honyaki knives should not feature this as much as clad knives, and are infinitely harder to fix. The problems are less in performance (though it does effect this) and more in long term sharpening. These issues will cause undesired and relatively unavoidable knife shape problems with repeated sharpening.

Taper is a different issue, but what i am seeing in the above pictures is warping.
 
The Shimatani yanagiba I received from Metalmaster.jp is bent like this too, it went back to him a few weeks ago. I'm still yet to receive my replacement, even though Metalmaster replied that he already received my return parcel. :scratchhead:
 
Oh dear ... may I ask which brand is that yanagiba?
 
My sword polishing book has a section on straightening. I've tried it and I probably wouldn't do it again; maybe on a practice knife. Just saying. It looks simple but, as Jon points out, is much more difficult to do correctly than it appears.
 
This is what I got from the seller after i inquired on the straightness:
I checked your pictures.
I think it is normal. Our blade is tapered spine. You should put the center on the edge. Of course, our knives has these small gaps because of made by hand. We don't think it is problem to use.
And you can cancel the order, if you hope.


Does it seem like fumes in the eyes or not?
 
The reason why this happens is because of a phenomenon called age hardening. Carbon will bend and warp after being forged due to the nature of the metal. Forgers resolved this problem by adding a thin strip of carbon to a thick piece of steel. Even if a knife is purchased in good straightened condition, both metals will naturally want to bend in opposite directions over time. There are knives that were poorly made and cannot be straighten well, and there are knives that can be straightened and used without a problem. However, it is pretty impossible for a knife to be completely straight and stay straight forever. All yanagi knives need to be straighten out by a professional every now and then. Some places offer this service for free, so you could try asking whoever you purchased from. Honyaki knives are MUCH harder (and scarier) to fix, so make sure whoever you ask to fix can do it well.
 
Anecdotes like this are the reason I'm convinced that who you buy a knife from is as important as which knife you buy.

Hope things get sorted out to your satisfaction.
 
The reason why this happens is because of a phenomenon called age hardening. Carbon will bend and warp after being forged due to the nature of the metal. Forgers resolved this problem by adding a thin strip of carbon to a thick piece of steel. Even if a knife is purchased in good straightened condition, both metals will naturally want to bend in opposite directions over time. There are knives that were poorly made and cannot be straighten well, and there are knives that can be straightened and used without a problem. However, it is pretty impossible for a knife to be completely straight and stay straight forever. All yanagi knives need to be straighten out by a professional every now and then. Some places offer this service for free, so you could try asking whoever you purchased from. Honyaki knives are MUCH harder (and scarier) to fix, so make sure whoever you ask to fix can do it well.

Anything you can do to prevent that or is it something that is beyond your control?
 
Thanks all for pitching in. So, from what I gather this type of "wrapping" is somewhat normal after certain period time. However this is a brand new knife so I am kinda disappointed to be honest. And paying more money to straighten is right off the bat does not seem right.

Anecdotes like this are the reason I'm convinced that who you buy a knife from is as important as which knife you buy.

Hope things get sorted out to your satisfaction.

I totally agree with you, but AFIK no1 sells Watanabe in America/Europe except himself.
 
just a thought to verify the grinding on the hollow side. If it is grounded evenly. when sharpened flat, only the top of spine and the edge shld be shining. Wld be great if you would post such a picture

I am curious as to this aspect as if the grind on this side is not even, you will have wider flat areas near the spine area.. and some areas

IF it is indeed a grinding issue any respectable maker wld take it back and resolve with the reseller if applicable

So i think.

look fwd to your pics

caveat.. I am no expert but have sharpened a few yanagis and debas to notice this uneven grind on the ura side.. which is more common on the kasumi grade as opposed to honkasumi adn definitely not on a honyaki as afterall, they are supposed to be made by only the master craftsman.

rgds d
 
Anything you can do to prevent that or is it something that is beyond your control?

It is beyond your control. Warping happens naturally and can also happen while sharpening too. But getting it straightened maybe once every year or two is enough, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
 
Zitangy, I will post some pics later today when I get home

Korin_Mari, So you would keep it and straitened even though it's a brand new product?
 
Zitangy, I will post some pics later today when I get home

Korin_Mari, So you would keep it and straitened even though it's a brand new product?

In this case since you just purchased it, you should ask them to replace it with a better and straighter one. I just wanted to explain why this happens and how all traditional Japanese knives bend even if it was once straight. (I hope that makes sense.)
 
Thanks Korin!

Pics of the back side of the blade:





 
Since Mari is helping out, I would note that I did ask for a replacement on a yanagi from Mari and this was a trouble free issue - just to reinforce the importance of going to reputable sellers whenever possible.

My impression, and I could be wrong, is that kasumi yanigibas work a bit like old thermostats with the two materials reacting to temperature changes by expanding at different rates, therefore creating a curve. I have heard this as an explanation as to why either suminigashi (plywood) or a single material (honyaki) will be more stable. Maybe...
 
I still don't understand why Ruso's knife is warped, now ground like that.

I have 10 slicers at home and only two Ikkanshi tadatsuna honyakies ( one made like 15 years ago and the other made 3 years ago) that I have show very similar issue. As both knives were made at different times show pretty much the same characteristics of shape, bevel ground, and etc, I have always thought the maker ground the knife like that and it is the maker's characteristics.
When I first got the knives, I did not see any issue on the shape of ura and have sharpened them repeatedly so far but have not observed any difference on the shape of ura over time either compared to other yanagis that do not have the issue.
 
Thanks Korin!

Pics of the back side of the blade:


tks for the pics.. a very even ura.. no high spots and so there goes my theory.

It there is a warp.. there will be a portion that will not make contact with the stone ( knife to stone)

have you put the blade flat on a glass top with the handle sticking out? I do it to veriy that it is not warped.

I do not think that a distal taper is done on both sides

You have not mentioned as to whether you hv made attempts to have it returned.

good luck..

rgds
d
 
Little bit off topic here. How about kitaeji or damascus type, overtime will it warp?
 
So it seems like a challenge for knife collector.
 
This is what I got back from the vendor. Looks like it's standard for his single bevel. :(

We think the gap is no problem to use.
I have checked some Yanagi knives in stock. And every knives have the difference like your yanagi knife.
We never check the straightness on the table. We only check the straightness on the edge with eye. We think it is enough for kitchen knife.


He is open for the return but this mean I will take a loss in shipping twice. And I could of get Gesshin Hide for that price. Feels so lame :(
BTW, I never had to return anything online before, is it a normal practice for the customer to pay shipping twice?

Thank you all for the help and interesting information.
 
This is what I got back from the vendor. Looks like it's standard for his single bevel. :(

We think the gap is no problem to use.
I have checked some Yanagi knives in stock. And every knives have the difference like your yanagi knife.
We never check the straightness on the table. We only check the straightness on the edge with eye. We think it is enough for kitchen knife.


He is open for the return but this mean I will take a loss in shipping twice. And I could of get Gesshin Hide for that price. Feels so lame :(
BTW, I never had to return anything online before, is it a normal practice for the customer to pay shipping twice?

Thank you all for the help and interesting information.

he's right about how straightness is checked in japan... everyone does it by eye, and more than 90% of the time, that is perfectly fine. There are a lot of factors to consider before returning something like that. Your knife may be perfectly functional or there may be problems. For me, its really hard to see from the pictures, but for what its worth, even more expensive knives have issues like that sometimes, and they arent always a problem. On the plus side, most of these kinds of things are fixable by skilled craftsmen.
 
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