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newboy

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Hi

I've got a 250, 1k and 4k set of king waterstones.

I tried freehand sharpening with the 250 and 1k. I sharpened a real cheep supermarket knife that was warn down past almost all of the bevel. This took some serious time as it was a 8in chef knife. After I was done I tried it out and was pretty pleased with the result. It would cut cleanly through paper and card, though was a little difficult to start the cut from the edge of the paper.

I had another go with the 3in utility knife, again, just as warn. This time I finished it off with the 4k stone, and the edge was about the same, apart from it would cut from the edges silightly easier.

Running the same test with my newish 8.5in victorinox chef knife, with a factory edge, the edge on the victorinox is better than the edge I was able to put on my cheep knifes.

Should I keep practicing on my cheap knives, trying the match the edge on the victorinox, or do you think I've reached the limit of what can be achived with the crap steel, and its time I tried seeing if I can improve the edge on the victorinox? (or atleast not make it worse lol)

Thanks
 
[video=youtube;CXLaE1JvQ94]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXLaE1JvQ94[/video]

Probably skill.
 
Fair enough. not overly sure the video is relevent... Though its pretty cool none the less. I wanted to know how far low quality steel could go, not what can be done with a ghetto sharpening solution. will be glad I watched that if a zombie apocalypse happens though.

I may have a go with the 4k stone again later tonight, and see if I can refine the finish a bit.

I wasnt really sure how much time to spend on the 4k stone. I did it until I made a burr on both sides of the blade with the 250g and 1000g, should I be aiming for the same with the 4k stone? I just went for a couple mins each side to polish up the edge a bit, presumed a burr wasnt going to happen on the finer grits, though I've based that on nothing...
 
I'm still yet to see a video of a substandard knife being made really sharp (as opposed to using substandard sharpening materials).
There's one where Murray Carter sharpens a spoon to the point he can shave with it. But again, it is a "white steel" spoon
made my Mr. Carter himself.

And to comment on the topic per se, I feel we are in the same boat, PO. There are people who would start learning to sharpen
with attempts to change geometry of high-end handmade knives. And then there are us preparing for a year before we dare
to touch as much as Victorinox. There are arguments on both sides of the idea of starting with cheap stainless. You might find
some comments in this thread relevant to your question:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/18570-Inexpensive-knives-to-teach-myself-hand-sharpening-with
But. Since I got my first (and so far only) J-knife, all cheap SS ones went to the deep drawer. Why? There are no fun. To use.
To sharpen. To take care of. To hold. And the J-knife ($30 incl ship from ebay)? I sharpen it every day. Sometimes twice if
I have time. Because it is fun, and when in doubt, I can be always sure it is me and my technique which needs to be improved,
not the steel or the stones. I'm a beginner, like you, so FWIW, and good luck.
 
Don't waste your time and stones with poor stainless steel. Get a simple basic carbon steel blade -- Old Hickory, Opinel, simple Robert Herder, K-Sabatier. And have fun.
 
See how all these crap knives glide through A4 paper like butter. The 2$ Santoku drops through by only the weight. The other 2 thin looking knives were once serrated for cutting steaks, I removed all the serrations and gave them razor edge.

[video=youtube;uAKj4w1uIrM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAKj4w1uIrM[/video]
 
Seriously, in my life, I have made 3 people cut their own fingers with the crap "Made in China/Thailand" knives that I sharpen for them. Sometimes, people just need to hurt themselves to know how to treat a knife with respect and care. Those "Ouch that's sharp!" experience.

That also shows how sharp any kinds of knives can get. Have some confidence and perseverance in yourself please, and please, don't use these luxurious waterstones for crap knives, just use SILICON CARBIDE(carborundum) or DIAMOND plates, + Oil Stone for finishing. Cheap stones for cheap knives, that simple. And use try to give your knives a microbevel, that's very crucial.

You don't have to listen to Mr.cabarete_cub, I bet he will never achieve that level to sharpen any kinds of steel. No offense but, "a bad carpenter always blames his tools".

The only difference between crap knives and good knives is the edge retention and the level of sharpness they can reach. Cheap knives has a sharpness limit, but that's more than enough for ordinary kitchen use, enough to draw blood easily by careless users.
 
Interesting. A bit of a conflict of opinions in the thread.

the little knife is sharp enough to be usful now, so I'll leave that. I will try the other couple of bigger knives from the cheap set, and see if I can put a better edge onto them than my last effort.

Your video of your paper test certainly shows that your cheap knives are sharper than mine, so there is probably more to be achived with mine.

I can gently run my finger over the edge without getting cut. I will not rest untill blood is shed lol.
 
I generally don't like to waste my time sharpening cheap steel mainly because it isn't enjoyable. Nice steel has better feedback and is actually fun to sharpen. You end up sharpening more and getting better faster, rather than getting annoyed and frustrated and avoiding it all together. It sounds like you have the basics down and are getting good results, move on to a basic carbon knife like mentioned or just sharpen your Vic. It's not like it is a custom made damascus knife you are afraid to mess up. If it gets some funky spots or scratches, so be it.

And yes, you can get cheap steel sharp. But the edge retention is very poor and usually thinning them is gummy and tedious. In addition to level of sharpness and retention, cheap steel is also usually difficult to deburr. Often when I see or sharpen cheap knives that are very sharp, they simply have a well aligned burr hanging on for dear life that feels wicked sharp. Another reason why the edge retention is poor, once you start using it the burr moves and then it is dull.
 
Yep, burrs are a big problem. I had no idea how much until I started pulling each knife through a piece of wood after sharpening. If the nick the edge leaves is still just a little bit "smudgy" you still have a burr. Also, try stropping. I use some cheap polishing compound on a piece of balsawood (just a few cents all in all) and it makes a huge difference. I can easily get my Wüsthofs and Victorinoxes and IKEA knives to shaving sharpness.
 
Yep, burrs are a big problem. I had no idea how much until I started pulling each knife through a piece of wood after sharpening. If the nick the edge leaves is still just a little bit "smudgy" you still have a burr. Also, try stropping. I use some cheap polishing compound on a piece of balsawood (just a few cents all in all) and it makes a huge difference. I can easily get my Wüsthofs and Victorinoxes and IKEA knives to shaving sharpness.

Yes, stropping, even without any compound, is still highly effective. My steak knife here is almost hair-splitting sharp from the strops. It's become a straight razor.
 
Apologies for other forum members for posting this silly video (I don't happen to think that cutting A4 is worth the bandwidth), but I am persistently challenged by one of
the Senior Members:

June, 26
Well, let us know how well your new carbon knives sharpen when you obtain them. Keep us updated. Post videos of the results if possible.
July, 4
So, can your new knives glide through paper yet?
July, 18
You don't have to listen to Mr.cabarete_cub, I bet he will never achieve that level to sharpen any kinds of steel. No offense but, "a bad carpenter always blames his tools".

and I felt that I should somehow reply, so here it goes:
[video=youtube_share;ymtolz9ULcA]http://youtu.be/ymtolz9ULcA[/video]

So, LKH9 you know what happens when Senior challenges self-confessed novice and loses, do you?
 
popcorn.gif
 
So, LKH9 you know what happens when Senior challenges self-confessed novice and loses, do you?

I'm sorry, but this video is not so relevant to what I ''insulted'' you here in this particular topic.. The knife you're using there is a Japanese carbon knife, which is very easy to sharpen. You should post this video at your original topic.

I bet he will never achieve that level to sharpen any kinds of steel(mainly stainless steel). No offense but, "a bad carpenter always blames his tools".

Any relevance? Good video by the way, even though not relevant to my post.

So, LKH9 you know what happens when Senior challenges self-confessed novice and loses, do you?

Why I'm pissed here is because you're telling another beginner that it's almost impossible to sharpen cheap knives, which sounds really ridiculous to hobbyist sharpeners. Let's say someone sees you sharpening, "Oh wow, you're so good at sharpening, will you sharpen one of my dull knives?" You:"Let's see, ****, this is a stainless knife, no it can't be sharpened!" Admirer:"WTH??"

No offense, but just because you can't do it yourself, doesn't mean others can't do it. This is also the 1st time I hear one needs a top quality knife just to learn sharpening.

Challenge? What challenge? I'm just sharing stuff with OP here, I didn't challenge anyone.:threadjacked:
 
I bet he will never achieve that level to sharpen any kinds of steel(mainly stainless steel). No offense but, "a bad carpenter always blames his tools".

Oh, man. You might add interpretations, but you can't change the quotes. You can't put stuff that was never said in quotes (like "insulted") either.

Why I'm pissed here is because you're telling another beginner that it's almost impossible to sharpen cheap knives

Where? (direct quotes, please)
 
Happy to oblige.

I'd compare practicing with cheap SS to football players putting extra weights for the workout. While useful, not for the beginners. Not before one gets a good feel of the game.
For more advanced ones, like LKH9 - yes, absolutely. It is important and mostly overlooked area. I hope I'd get there one day.
 
Sharpening or practicing on cheapo crappy knives is a waste of time. I mean what's the point? If I sharpen it to 5k it fails after 1 cut. Sharpen it to 1k it fails after 2 cuts. You don't get to learn how to properly develop a sharp, strong and lasting edge. YOU ARE NOT LEARNING! In addition you get discouraged by your quickly failing edges.
 
The only immediate value I see in using cheap (SS or otherwise, but nowadays cheap seems to automatically mean SS)
knives for learning many aspects of sharpening is that one overcomes fear. Want to put a hummer to the knife? Fine!
Want to learn to operate a sander? No problemo. Your hands are not shaking, because your loss is capped with $2, and
you don't have to observe the (likely ugly) consequences of your experiment and wish you never touched that piece
with your clumsy hands.

Will you learn everything you need to work with good steel? No. Can you learn something (being conscious about
the deficiencies of the material at hand)? I think why not.
 
Just to chime in here, I think two salient points can be made that satisfy everybody.

LKH9 is relatively new here, barely 3 months in (so don't feel like a long-time senior member is picking on you cab_club, most forum regulars are 100% friendly) but is damned good at sharpening stainless by holding very accurate angle using jigs or his hands. He has a good method that is probably not typical. It isn't as easy as sharpening carbon. I think we can agree, then, that it takes skill to do so. But it seems he also habitually picks fights around here that are rooted in that skill, insisting that various folks are wrong because he is good at sharpening soft stainless. That could merely be how he phrased things (as I interpret them), but most folks around here are quite welcoming to new folks, especially the sharpening gods of the forum whose skill is unparalleled.

I think it still stands that it is nice to learn on carbon and there's no reason to look down on that. I personally have made a point to fix up old carbons and gift them to people who want sharp knives because most stainless just doesn't feel worth the effort for the edge retention, as it dulls so quickly. But maybe I am just too lazy to get soft stainless scary sharp like LKH9 does (impressively successfully). It is clear that soft stainless CAN be made sharp with certain techniques, but I and many others find carbon more responsive and fun in the long run. To each his own.

Now please just get along, folks. It's dangerous when people pick fights with knives in their hands!
 
My apologies to everybody again. Hope you weren't disturbed. And of course I recognize LKH9's skill.
Which I'm planning to match sometime soon. Yeah!
 
@nerologic

Believe me, it doesn't take a lot of time to touch up those crap SS knives. When I do need 1 hour+ to sharpen a SS knife, it's because I want to modify the crap factory bevel, that takes heap loads of efforts to grind by hand. When that secondary bevel is done, the primary/microbevel should be quick to happen. 5-10 mins to touch up a not too dull SS knife, about 6-7" in length. Pass a paper cutting test and it's complete. So fun in fact I'm still waiting for friends to offer me cheap knives to sharpen. Weeks ago, I even tried to sharpen a pair of stainless scissors which was ridiculously dull, it was back to push-cutting sharp on paper, 1st attempt on scissors.

I just feel this forum is a bit different, I've been to some other forums before and those people hardly ever mention about blade material when it comes to sharpening skills, some even say "any steel can be turned into razor blade", quite true. This is the first place I ever hear of this so commonly, no offense!

Over here, carbon kitchen knives are almost non-existent except from butchers and those old Chinese food shops. Kiwi brand stainless knives are the most widely available product, everyone seems to have one in the house.
 
That sounds like a sensible limitation, gotta work with what's available. It's clearly better than having dull stainless knives. I think we can all agree that caring for our tools, regardless of how fancy they are, is a primary concern around here.

Coming from a place where I can get a box of dinged up old carbon blades for $5, it is easy to default to those and suggest the same to others, though that isn't true in other places (like the UK where knives cannot be sold on eBay). It also makes sense that pro restaurant folks favor whatever retains a good edge for a few work days. We've all got our opportunities and limitations that lead to our preferences. There's no harm in making the best of what's.

I'd say the OP can buy carbon if he would like to, or continue refining his technique on stainless, but with something other than waterstones. If you go carbon, newboy, I hear a guy might sell you his Rader for $10,000....
 
I just measured the time again, this time, around 10 minutes total minus all the time wasted on unneeded paper slicing frenzy. :knife:Grind on the medium silicon stone until burr is raised, deburr, switch to Finishing Oil Stone, raise another burr, deburr, strop on cardboard to realign the edge. This is the result within 10 minutes, I just lost another patch of hairs on my arm and leg.

[video=dailymotion;x21uuga]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x21uuga_shaving-test[/video]

This knife is quite old and totally abused. See the fine microbevel? I think someone here is going to cut his hand again while peeling fruits.

 
Re-posted, account prob on Dailymotion. Mod please help edit the above post.

[video=youtube_share;uhtAbPu3gf0]http://youtu.be/uhtAbPu3gf0[/video]
 
Sorry for being rude, but instead of capturing videos you'd better fix that broken tip.

Maybe it is not his knife and the owner said nothing about the tip ... or maybe it is for a child and a knife without a tip is preferred?
 
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