Slicing technique

I´m not trying to point fingers or anything. Actually for the final purpose of the recipe is OK, but, talking about technique, would you proceed in a different way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj_oADk5LV8

I would use a 10"+ really sharp knife (the one in the video seems 10" or so) with the slicing motion towards me, slightly angled and holding the protein with the palm of the non-knife hand.

And certainly would have the herbs pepper and salt pre mixed in another proper container (and would not chop the herbs with the same slicing knife...).

I think is nice if you can review techniques and gather opinions.


JJ

By the way, that looks delicious.

I'm not a chef but I just spent an hour watching those videos. Lots of stuff I've never heard of or tried.

I think she is slicing the beef toward the camera for visual effect. Raw beef is harder to slice than medium you need a sharp knife.

Yes I think she is doing that slicing for the camera angle. Chilling the beef before slicing helps a bit. If almost starting to freeze is even better but you start to change the quality of the beef once it freezes.

I didn't see any slicing technique being demonstrated. Sawing? Yes. Slicing, no. Nice dish however.

Yep, she mangled that beef. All kinds of dubious things going on there. First thing would be to use a knife more suited to the application.

Keith you´re right I also noticed.

Theory That´s exactly the point. Not to show what she´s doin wrong (true she is in an awkard position because of the camera) but what you would do instead.

That´s a shun right?

Certainly a better suited knife and a camera man or director who can get the shot without adjusting her technique would be helpful.

What's wrong with chopping herbs with the knife you intend to slice with?

JohnnyChance said:

What's wrong with chopping herbs with the knife you intend to slice with?

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Slicers have a more delicate edge sometimes. You can chip the edge if you bang on the board.

Im not really crazy about the technique she used for preparing her Carpaccio at all in that video. Clearly her shun was pretty dull, and she would've made better cuts with a suji(less drag from the steak). The way I would make the cut would be to make quick short push cut just enough to break the crusty exterior and then a pull cut the length of the blade to portion.

pullox said:

Keith you´re right I also noticed.

Theory That´s exactly the point. Not to show what she´s doin wrong (true she is in an awkard position because of the camera) but what you would do instead.

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Has nothing to do with the akward camera angle. She just doesn't know how to slice. It would help if she had a longer blade like a Sujihiki. Then it would help if she knew how to use it. Start at the heel and in one smooth drawing motion complete the cut with no sawing back and forth 16 times.

rami_m said:

Slicers have a more delicate edge sometimes. You can chip the edge if you bang on the board.

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I disagree. I feel as though this is like an old wives tale of the knife world. If an herb or some board contact is going to cause issues with your edges, you have other problems. A crust on a roast is going to pose an even bigger threat in that case.

ecchef said:

Yep, she mangled that beef. All kinds of dubious things going on there. First thing would be to use a knife more suited to the application.

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Yeah she did. She needs a sharp knife for starters and she wouldn't end up mashing that beef up

It seems that she is not the only one. He saws trough the meat at the 3:59. I suppose if he bankrupts, career in sushi making is out of the question.

[video=youtube;2ZLyQ9FXj9A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZLyQ9FXj9A#t=241[/video]

JohnnyChance said:

I disagree. I feel as though this is like an old wives tale of the knife world. If an herb or some board contact is going to cause issues with your edges, you have other problems. A crust on a roast is going to pose an even bigger threat in that case.

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I am not an expert so happy to be proven wrong.
A suji does not have the geometry of a gyuto. My understanding is that gyuto's are thicker in general for durability. Suji are thin so it can slice better. Now some people use them as a line knife with board chopping and such. So I can't make generalizations.

I know I've got some edge rolls on my suji from taking the ends off a few garlic cloves.

How short is Jamie's knife? 16cm? lol

Sujis are narrower than gyutos and will therefore taper less gradually. Not that it matters that much as a blade won't wedge in meat. The sujis I know aren't exactly delicate. Some sharpeners though will give them a finer, less robust edge because they won't encounter that much board contact.

I think the biggest problem that can cause chipping is not pressure but torque. In the vid she chops the herbs by pressing down the tip with one hand while chopping and moving around the blade with the other. It is inevitable that the edge digs into the chopping board a little bit and when you then move the blade it gets "twisted". I believe that is when chipping occurs, not necessarily due to "banging" it down on the board.

first of all her knife is blunt,second her cutting technique or lack of it is shocking and third the way to make a proper carpaccio is by pounding the meat not searing and then smearing it.Obviously you then don't have the herb crust but the texture of the meat will be much nicer.Shame really i used to really like river cafe obviously it has gone downhill.

rami_m said:

I am not an expert so happy to be proven wrong.
A suji does not have the geometry of a gyuto. My understanding is that gyuto's are thicker in general for durability. Suji are thin so it can slice better. Now some people use them as a line knife with board chopping and such. So I can't make generalizations.

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Ehh, obviously there will be variations from manufacturer to manufacturer or maker to maker, but I don't find sujis from the same line/source to be drastically thinner or thicker at the edge than gyutos. Both knives benefit from being really thin at the edge. Like Benuser said, sujis are shorter so the transition to a thin edge is more drastic, which could lead to wedging in the case of a gyuto. Not an issue for a suji. It could even add to a sujis durability and toughness. I think the thinnest knives I have at/behind the edge are actually gyutos.

mhpr262 said:

I think the biggest problem that can cause chipping is not pressure but torque. In the vid she chops the herbs by pressing down the tip with one hand while chopping and moving around the blade with the other. It is inevitable that the edge digs into the chopping board a little bit and when you then move the blade it gets "twisted". I believe that is when chipping occurs, not necessarily due to "banging" it down on the board.

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Maybe. If you apply a ton of pressure to the tip while you walk the heel around, I supposed that could happen. But for that technique you don't want a ton of pressure. You should be fairly light if you walk the knife around. So I suppose that could happen but I would feel like it would be more user error than the edge being too thin. I also have no issue with taking avocado pits out by putting a knife into them and twisting, nor have I had any issues doing so.

OK, let me repeat that the idea of this thread is not to point what is wrong but to specify what would you do instead.

For example. I would not use the same slicing knife for the herbs simply because I would have had them chopped in the prep, with my prep knife. Actually I would have the meat ready with the crust just waiting for the grill. Therefore I would slice it with my line knife wich in this case (give the station) would be a 10" gyuto, suji or even a yanagi.

JJ

I agree w/ Labor of Love. Slight push then pull. The dullness of her knife and weirdo technique make the blade's length more of an issue. I would use any of the knives I generally use on the line, 210 Heiji petty, 240 Kagekiyo suji or 270 Marko suji. A gyuto would be fine by me as well, I usually don't keep one on my station during service though.

I'm with you Johnny, just use the knife. I have been chopping up frozen fruit every day for smoothy with a 1# Tojiro VG-10 cleaver. After over a year no chipping at all. Sharpen it about twice a month, the fresh edge sticks in my endgrain for a while, after that the weight of the cleaver helps make quick work of frozen fruit.

At work would make Carpaccio, Beef & Ahi. Would lay saran wrap on the table, put down the protein & another sheet of saran on top. Used a small sauté pan to flatten, spread the meat. Of coarse I was prepping at least a dozen plates at a time.

I think most cooks here know how important having a sharp slicer on hand is. Yanagi, Sugi., or Gyuto. Then you can make a clean slice with one stroke.

Well a few years ago we served carpaccio at the rest. The tenderloin was briefly cured in a rack in the fridge. Sliced in a 8" electric slicer and served with a sort of smoked trout bagna cauda, a local salty cured cheese, olive oil and radish sprouts.

@pullox
sorry about the rant,just a tad dissapointed in river cafe letting such an amateur prep a dish on tv.
Anyways if I was working in a place that did that dish a la minute(highly unlikely) I would have chopped the herbs during prep ,probably with my one of my gyutos or and I would slice the meat with my 240mm shig yanagi which I find works great on the line even with limited space and does a great job even though it s a quite a bit shorter then the 300mm suji i used to use for these kind of jobs

To be honest, you know what works really well? Season, sear, partially freeze then slice on a deli slicer for razor thin cuts.

that video was difficult to watch.

i agree with theory. i've never even seen the pound/smearing method before.

I can't recall where, but I read somewhere that the original recipe was done by pounding beef until very thin. This is the way I did it at the restaurant I used to work at. The Larousse Gastronomic, does recommend the freezing method. I personally would just use a gyuto to slice about an inch thick round and pound it between to sheets of vitafilm that have been oiled and keep them that way in a fridge until serving.