What is the point of damascus?

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cabarete_cub

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I know damascus is praised for its beauty and craftsmanship that goes into making it, but are there any real advantages
compared to the 'regular' 3 layered knife?
 
cabarete_cub said:
I know damascus is praised for its beauty and craftsmanship that goes into making it, but are there any real advantages
compared to the 'regular' 3 layered knife?
Click to expand...

It depends on what damascus you are talking about. San mai construction is essentially cosmetic, while coreless damascus does have a performance advantage in a longer lasting effective edge, at least in my experience.
 
I meant multilayered damascus, the ones with the pattern. And referred to san mai by "3 layered knife". "San" stands for "3" in Japanese, right?
My understanding was that the idea of san mai is to protect the rigid inner core from shock and oxidation.
 
cabarete_cub said:
I meant multilayered damascus, the ones with the pattern. And referred to san mai by "3 layered knife". "San" stands for "3" in Japanese, right?
My understanding was that the idea of san mai is to protect the rigid inner core from shock and oxidation.
Click to expand...

This method is adopted from the method used in making samurai swords, it's a necessity without the use of spring temper of a long sword. Imagine a pencil structure, brittle core with soft wood shock absorber. It's to support the very hard brittle core steel, I think most people here know this. Traditional Japanese blades are just quenched, never tempered at all to get that extreme hardness and edge retention.
 
cabarete_cub said:
I meant multilayered damascus, the ones with the pattern. And referred to san mai by "3 layered knife". "San" stands for "3" in Japanese, right?
My understanding was that the idea of san mai is to protect the rigid inner core from shock and oxidation.
Click to expand...

Exactly what do you mean by "multilayered damascus"? Do you understand the distinction between san mai damascus and coreless damascus?
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
It depends on what damascus you are talking about. San mai construction is essentially cosmetic, while coreless damascus does have a performance advantage in a longer lasting effective edge, at least in my experience.
Click to expand...

I always think damascus as the core steel itself is no longer necessary with modern steel?
 
I think it was Maxim quoting the Shig folks that kitaeji would be more stable. This makes sense and is what I meant by the plywood comment. My intuition would say that this could be more important on single bevel. (See the crooked yangi thread.) Maybe...
 
LKH9 said:
I always think damascus as the core steel itself is no longer necessary with modern steel?
Click to expand...

I think the terminology needs to be clarified.

San mai is a type of construction where a hard core steel is enclosed between layers (cladding) of softer steel or iron. The cladding may be plain, or it may be pattern welded (damascus or suminigashi). Coreless damascus is where the entire blade is made by repeatedly folding layers of steel.

San mai:

Koaandsanmai240mmgyuto002800x480800x480.jpg


Coreless:

attachment.php


In a san mail constructed blade, damascus cladding is essentially cosmetic. In a coreless constructed blade, there is a gain in actual, real-world performance in terms of effective edge retention. I've found that my coreless damascus knives do not require touching up as often.
 
I am ready to believe that the reason behind damascus cladding or even core-less damascus blades is the look and the potential for the craftsman to express his/her artistic and technical skills. Whether there are any relevant advantages that actually show in real use in comparison to 'standard' san-mail cladding I do not know, but would not be surprised if the difference would be rather subtle.

I personally am fully capable to enjoy the 'optical performance' of a damascus blade :D
 
As someone who has been making Damascus for 28 years, I can say from a performance standpoint there is no purpose to Damascus or even San Mai blades over a single modern steel blade other than cosmetics. Before modern smelting methods, there was a good reason for it, and having worked small batch smelted ore into steel, I can say that the process makes a significant difference in the finished product.
Having said that I love the process of making Damascus, and seeing the finished product as well.
I am grateful there are so many that do appreciate the quality and craftsmanship that goes into a well made Damascus blade, and so allow me to do what I love to do.
Thanks,
Del
 
Seth said:
I think it was Maxim quoting the Shig folks that kitaeji would be more stable. This makes sense and is what I meant by the plywood comment. My intuition would say that this could be more important on single bevel. (See the crooked yangi thread.) Maybe...
Click to expand...

Oh, now I got the "plywood". I happened to read the crooked yanagi thread just before posting, and it was the first time I learned that knife blades are subject to wrapping (same as wood), so never made a connection. Thanks!
 
@Delbert Ealy

Thank you for the explanation. I'm becoming a local authority on kitchen knives subject (so easy in our knife-ignorant world) and wanted to educate myself about most frequently mentioned industry hallmark.

@Pensacola Tiger
I thought damascus is always at least a dozen layers or so (hence "multi"), while sun mai is just inner core wrapped in a softer steel. Thank you for clearing my misconception.
 
So is Shigefuda kitaeji made by San mai or core less method?
 
San Mai using damascus cladding is an aesthetic choice compared with other soft metal claddings, but San Mai construction itself is not just for aesthetics. It allows you to use a harder core steel that will hold an edge for longer as well as improve ease and speed of sharpening (also less expensive depending on what you're using for the core steel).
 
Delbert Ealy said:
As someone who has been making Damascus for 28 years, I can say from a performance standpoint there is no purpose to Damascus or even San Mai blades over a single modern steel blade other than cosmetics. Before modern smelting methods, there was a good reason for it, and having worked small batch smelted ore into steel, I can say that the process makes a significant difference in the finished product.
Having said that I love the process of making Damascus, and seeing the finished product as well.
I am grateful there are so many that do appreciate the quality and craftsmanship that goes into a well made Damascus blade, and so allow me to do what I love to do.
Thanks,
Del
Click to expand...

That's what I've been thinking. Some people even say if the folding is done poorly, that will even ruin the good modern steel(air gaps in-between the welds)
 
Thinning is easier on san mai blades as the cladding abraids more freely, which is a noticeable benefit to the user.
 
LKH9 said:
That's what I've been thinking. Some people even say if the folding is done poorly, that will even ruin the good modern steel(air gaps in-between the welds)
Click to expand...

This is true, and sometimes it is even true of forging a single steel. An inexperienced forger can do things to the steel with improper forging that can not be fixed. There are things that can happen to steel even at ambient temperature that cannot be fixed as well, it's the reason I have not used "recycled" steel since my early days of making knives.
Del
 
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