Getting a bit discouraged

So.... Last week a got my King 1K/6K stone and decided to practice sharpening. I tried on a really old stainless Henckels chef knife and didn't get a nice job. Then I tried on a Henckels Santoku and got a MUCH better result (so I assumed that I had nailed down the VERY BASIC principles and motions).

So I've just finished trying to get the chef knife to a decent sharpness but still with no result (the santoku is still sharper than the chef's knife after a week use by my family so I must have done something right at some point). I just can't get a decent burr and I feel I lack a way to measure my progress.

However today I feel totally lost on the inclination of the blade against the stone, number of passes etc.....

Basicly I need some help!!! Any suggestion for resources (Online-DVD's-Teachers!!)

Thanks,
Larry

I'd suggest starting here: [video]https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB[/video]

But don't be too discouraged...i had a similar experience when I got started. I later figured out that a large chuck of the problem was how much thinning I needed to do on my old henckel's before it could have a nice edge (I eventually gave up). Also, that particular steel is a PITA to work with compared to the harder steels in most of the jKnives.

Keep at it! you'll get there.

It isn't easy, you can't pick it up in a day, or a week or even a few months. I would think the issue here is the steel on the chefs knife may be softer and you are rounding the edge.

Also the santoku is already going to have a thinner profile making it a bit easier to sharpen

It will take a bit of time and careful, deliberate practice to build up your skill foundation. When I started out, I didn't get a burr and had no frickin' clue what a burr felt like even though I kept reading and hearing about it. But one day, at a sharpening demo, I felt a real burr. That helped me a lot - hopefully you're in a better position than I was - and just knowing what I was aiming for really helped.

But y'know what made the biggest difference for me? In-person instruction from someone who really knows what they're doing. And then immediately practicing afterwards to lock that new learning into my mind and body.

Keep at it. Once you get it - that foundation and that ability to cut in a new bevel or to hit the edge - you're gonna have that til the day you can't sharpen because of physical limitations. It's worth working at it til you get it

Keep in mind that you would not have a huge burr on 1000 stone. It will be noticeable to touch still though.
Try using higher angle when sharpening and go slower. You wont get the killer edge but you will see the burr and learn how to feel for it.

Thanks for the comments guys! I can feel a burr when I go on a steeper angle.... Also I was just trying to sharpen a newer knife and I've noticed that I get the tip of the blade a lot sharper (I can shave with it) and the heel is really hard to get to. Is it possible that my stone is just really not flat anymore. I've only used it for about 5-6 hours?!

Finally regarding the angle, some place say 15 degrees but I really have a hard time picturing and figuring out what 15 degree looks like.... Is the 2 penny trick any good?

Ruso said:

Keep in mind that you would not have a huge burr on 1000 stone. It will be noticeable to touch still though.
Try using higher angle when sharpening and go slower. You wont get the killer edge but you will see the burr and learn how to feel for it.

Click to expand...

this is true, and the reason free hand is so difficult is that you can pretty much raise a burr on any stone, (except 10k and up... even then though) and if you don't understand what to feel or look for it can get really frustration. Also burr removal after each stone is very important otherwise you will get a wire edge.

LarryC said:

Is it possible that my stone is just really not flat anymore. I've only used it for about 5-6 hours?!

Finally regarding the angle, some place say 15 degrees but I really have a hard time picturing and figuring out what 15 degree looks like.... Is the 2 penny trick any good?

Click to expand...

After a number of hours, I'm pretty sure the stone is not flat anymore. If you have a flattener, just use it and you'll see where it takes some material away - the edges and particularly the corners. If you don't have one yet, just lightly run your knife spine-first from a corner to the center and you'll probably feel a dip.

Ah, the degrees thing. The 2 penny trick is always a little iffy because your final angle really depends on how tall your knife is - the distance from the edge to the spine. I'm not sure what to suggest on this one because I think it really does come down to feel and experience.

Besides Jon's videos, i used the DVD sold at Korin http://korin.com/The-Chefs-Edge-Knife-Sharpening-DVD
It helped me a lot. Loved the trailing strokes. I just wish it was longer with more material, especially on deburring and stropping.

To get better understanding on rough angles you can use one of this:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/14320-Angle-finder-app?highlight=angle+meter
It's something not very practical to use every time, but should be useful to give you some idea.

+1 for having in-person instruction with an expert. I had similar experience not long ago and attending a knife sharpening class really helped.

And this might help too.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/19065-Only-edge-trailing-strokes

LarryC said:

Thanks for the comments guys! I can feel a burr when I go on a steeper angle.... Also I was just trying to sharpen a newer knife and I've noticed that I get the tip of the blade a lot sharper (I can shave with it) and the heel is really hard to get to. Is it possible that my stone is just really not flat anymore. I've only used it for about 5-6 hours?!

Finally regarding the angle, some place say 15 degrees but I really have a hard time picturing and figuring out what 15 degree looks like.... Is the 2 penny trick any good?

Click to expand...

your stones will not be flat after less than 30 minutes of use (truly flat) you could probably go about 15 minutes of actual sharpening. Less if you use a lot of pressure. more if you have a light touch. Also depends on the stones.

thanks guys! and yeah the stone flattener is in the mail so really looking forward to getting it!

Knives like your Henckels are unpleasant for anyone to sharpen, beginners even more so. Despite being soft, they're somewhat abrasion resistant, and being so thick behind the edge, it takes a long time to get anywhere. There's just a lot of steel to remove. A slowish, fast wearing stone like the King just makes things worse. Best advice is to keep your stone flat, and use lots of marker to check your progress.

It's probably very dull and needs to be thinned. Would take forever on a 1000 stone. Try a 240 or 400 grit stone to thin it out before jumping to your medium grit 1000. Also what steel are the knives? The king stone is not the fastest at removing steel either.

I used to almost feel like I knew what I was doing then bam total failure. At times I said to myself just send them out to get sharpened. At some point I realized practice is the only way and it took a while to become confident but now I just went to a local restaurant and gave a "class". Keep with it and practice.

When I was learning to sharpen, I'd practice with everything I could get my hands on. My friends Wusthof on the King 1000 took FOREVER. That's just how it is with those stainless steels.

If you have a friend with a miter saw, cut yourself (say out of a 2x4) a couple of angle guides = 10,15, 20 degrees. I found them helpful for checking my angle placement..

Personally i do my german type knives with diamond plates on an edge pro or by running various dmt honed across the blade while keeping the knife rigid and holding the hone at the right angle. Then as needed thinning them on a larger diamond plate and I never go above 2000-3000 grit (DMT XFine). I don't even bother putting them to stones for regular sharpening, total PITA and I don't see the point...

I use diamond plates as low as 140 for thinning dull stainless. Larry what kind of flattener are you getting? As mentioned the Santoku is thinner & will sharpen easier. The King 1K will take work to thin a dull German SS even if you know what you are doing.

A lot of sharpening is technique, spending hours trying to get an edge can be counter productive. One on One is the best way to learn sharpening then mistakes can be recognized & corrected in real time. However that is not always possible. The next best thing is Jon's (knife sharpening playlist) First 10 vids are double edge knives. The first one deals with positioning the blade to the stone, what the handle hand does & the blade hands function. Also how to deal with heel sharpening when the handle is in the way. Basic fundamental stuff. My suggestion would be to watch the first 10 vids a couple times to internalize what is being said.

If you PM me I will send you an old thin carbon blade I picked up at a garage sale. It is easy to sharpen. You will see results which will give you confidence. Do not give up you will get there, just need a little direction.

osakajoe said:

It's probably very dull and needs to be thinned. Would take forever on a 1000 stone. Try a 240 or 400 grit stone to thin it out before jumping to your medium grit 1000. Also what steel are the knives? The king stone is not the fastest at removing steel either.

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I assume it's some kind of Stainless.... the logo and specs printed on the blade have faded away. And yeah, I am definitely going to try my coarser stone when I get it (hopefully today!)

keithsaltydog said:

I use diamond plates as low as 140 for thinning dull stainless. Larry what kind of flattener are you getting? As mentioned the Santoku is thinner & will sharpen easier. The King 1K will take work to thin a dull German SS even if you know what you are doing.

A lot of sharpening is technique, spending hours trying to get an edge can be counter productive. One on One is the best way to learn sharpening then mistakes can be recognized & corrected in real time. However that is not always possible. The next best thing is Jon's (knife sharpening playlist) First 10 vids are double edge knives. The first one deals with positioning the blade to the stone, what the handle hand does & the blade hands function. Also how to deal with heel sharpening when the handle is in the way. Basic fundamental stuff. My suggestion would be to watch the first 10 vids a couple times to internalize what is being said.

If you PM me I will send you an old thin carbon blade I picked up at a garage sale. It is easy to sharpen. You will see results which will give you confidence. Do not give up you will get there, just need a little direction.

Click to expand...

I am getting a SK-11 Diamond Plate 400 grit.... got it for cheap on ebay.

That's good, you can use that 400 plate to thin behind the edge on dull stainless. When lapping your stone with the plate don't overdo it your stone will last longer.

Larry, one other note about the heel. Knives with bolsters can make it troublesome around the heel if they have a fingerguard. On any knife if you sharpen righty, the left side heel will be tough to get to. Watch Jon's video, he changes approach angle on the left side for this reason. Also try to do long strokes using the whole stone. The work will go faster and less wobble.

Do you use the chefs knife? Or are you just practicing sharpening on it? If you don't really use it, I would not waste my time thinning it just to be able to sharpen it. Just leave it thick and dull for bones, lobsters, opening cans, etc.

Thinning those knives, especially if they are well used, is time consuming, boring, tedious, annoying and not worth the time or materials (life of your diamond plate).

I'd rather go to an asian market and buy some cheap knives or cleavers to practice on.

Just a word of warning, sharpening on that plate is going to wear it out in no time. Soft, gummy stainless just loves to pull diamonds off of plates. Stick to flattening with it, or consider it disposable.

or go to harbor freight and buy three crappy but useable diamond plate for <$10

yeah after consideration I think I will quit trying to work something out with the Henckels chef's knife.... I've got a fujiwara gyuto coming in the mail soon so I think I'll just practice on this one!

Thanks for all the info everyone! I now feel more confident to resume my sharpening adventure!

You won't be very excited about the edge on the Henkel's when you get done -- they can be sharpened, but those are the knives that people chop into a hard cutting board with instead of slicing (makes my skin crawl!) and they will tolerate it forever, they are so soft a steel can easily wipe the rolled over edge from banging it into the board so hard back up without much change in the sharpness. So they are really only sharp for the first couple cuts after you steel them. Annoying.

If you do want to learn how to grind down a bevel, use a black sharpie and "write" the length of the bevel on each side. Grind a bit at your selected angle, and then wipe it off and see how much of the black ink has bee removed. Likely not much, and it will take a lifetime to remove that gummy, abrasion resistant steel down to the actual edge.

A very coarse stone will help quite a bit here, but you need a hard one with light pressure. With that steel, a soft stone will simply vanish in front of your eyes and round the bevel out, leaving you with endless work!

Go to a yard sale or flea market and look for some old thin carbon steel blades. Chicago Cutlery made huge numbers of perfectly nice 1095 carbon steel knives, and typcally they are rather thin in profile, plus properly ground in the first place. They will sharpen quickly and easily, and if you find some that have been badly sharpened, you can learn how to fix them without a month of grinding every night with no results. And carbon steel is a pleasure to use, it just goes dull fairly rapidly.

Peter