New knife set recomendation

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA (TN)



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
I'm interested in a set of knives. At least a chef's knife, slicer, utility, bread, and paring knife. I don't see myself ever using a cleaver, and don't have any opinion on a boning knife.

Are you right or left handed? right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? no idea

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) yes?

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? looking to spend $1,000 - $1,500 for a set



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) trimming/slicing meat and vegetables

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Ken Onion Shun Set

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? none

What cutting motions do you primarily use? There is no method to my use of a knife

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) I was actually pretty happy with my knife set. If I were picking nits, the only bad thing I ever noticed was food would stick to the blade's smooth side.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Not rubber, but some combination of the rest. Never glass, if that's what this is asking.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes and no. Pocket knives and cheap kitchen knives, yes. I had decided I wasn't going to personally shapen my Shun set.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes, very interested

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes. I have a set of DMT diamond sharpening whetstones but find I couldn't maintain a consistent angle to get a properly sharp edge. Thinking of picking up the cheap HF 1x30 belt sander.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I bought the Ken Onion Shun set on woot.com around the time they were being discontinued, then filled out the pieces missing from the initial set. The offset handles kept my hands from running into the board while using, which has annoyed me with previous knives. They were a beautiful Damascus layered steel, extremely sharp, hard Japanese blades that I expected to stay sharp a long time. I really enjoyed using them. I am by no stretch a professional chef and do not spend a lot of time in the kitchen. That said, I like nice things and hate being disappointed by my tools. I'm aiming for spending money now on quality things that will last me the rest of my life (currently 33 years old).

I owned that set of Shun knives for about a year and a half, maybe. Then my house burned down, and insurance is giving me something like $1,000 - $1,500 to buy a new set. If I could find all the knives I had before for sale again, I probably would just buy them, but they're not made anymore. I think they were on their way out when I bought them originally. Googling around landed me on Ken Onion's Rain Series by Chef Works. They are similarly shaped, but made by someone completely different, and there is a texture to the blades. The texture may help with food release, but it may also hinder sharpening. I have no idea how much about what I liked about the previous set would be transferred over to this new one, aside from the visibly similar shape.

Further research on some kind of reviews on the set turned up very little. One of the primary things it turned up was the lengthy thread here. I was honestly kind of astonished at the near universal hatred for the things. Everyone talked about the terrible unergonomic shape, wrists hurt just looking at it, couldn't manage a full day of prep with them, only good for rock chopping. I said before, I am far from a professional chef. I will never spend all day in the kitchen working with a knife. I don't know enough people to ever cook that much food. I don't know that I ever really rock-chopped with the other set. They were just really sharp and then and cut through anything I put under the blade easily.

All that said, if they're so bad, what would you recommend? I have a moderate budget, so I can afford something better than bargain basement sets. Maybe a Shun Classic? I'm honestly interested in what's considered good. Convince me not to go buy this: http://www.cutleryandmore.com/ken-onion-by-chef-works-rain-series/ultimate-knife-block-set-p129850

Don't go buy that.

I wrote what I thought was a charitable review here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/14746-Ken-Onion-quot-Rain-quot-Mini-reveiw

I've handled and worked with every knife in the series. They all suck for what they claim to be designed for. Cutting stuff.

The Bread Knife. I cut half a baguette with this and had to find a knife to finish with. Note Ken's signature serrations on top - where your hand goes. Between the serrations, the sharp spine, and that it can't cut it kind of sucks.




The Silly. No one, not even Rain's manufactures rep, can tell me what this knife is supposed to do.







Other "interesting" shots.






What Distal Taper is not:




If your intent is to have something for your friends and neighbors to ohh and ahh over, this will serve you well. Look for them on sale - the store I know well recently marked them 1/2 price and they're still not moving.

If you want a quality set of knives (not necc a knife set) then suggest you think about acquiring 1 quality chef knife (gyuto) in the 2-3 hundred dollar range then go from there.

daveb said:

Don't go buy that.

Click to expand...

Alright. The more I think about it and look around, the more I could talk myself out of it.

daveb said:

If you want a quality set of knives (not necc a knife set) then suggest you think about acquiring 1 quality chef knife (gyuto) in the 2-3 hundred dollar range then go from there.

Click to expand...

I am one of those people who really likes things to be matched, hence the desire to find a set. I don't cook much (don't even have pots and pans yet) so the things I really miss are a bread knife and something long and thin for cutting watermelon. Starting with a chef's knife wouldn't work quite so well. I probably used my utility knife more than my chef's knife previously.

I definitely get the feeling that people here tend to have very diverse knife sets. Maybe I'll get to that point. Maybe I should start with something I won't mind that's a little cheaper so I won't feel so bad if I want to make replacements in the future. Something like a Shun Classic 8-piece block set ($600) plus maybe a produce knife ($170) or a carving knife ($140). I really need to find somewhere local that has them so I can get a feel for the handles. They are very different than my last ones.

I get the "matching set" part, I started that way but transcended:cool2:

Shun's don't suck. Not your best bang for your buck but you can do worse. Should you want to go that route, Epicurean Edge is a sponsoring vendor here, retails Shuns, and offers a discount to forum members.

Another route to consider is the Suisin Western. I've gifted several of the chef knives and they're always well received. A "set" would look like this:




There is no conceivable kitchen task that could not be done with these. Better knives and you'll have a couple hundred in your pocket. (To spend on a mag block or counter block and of course some sharpening "stuff".)

I'll leave it to others to further add to the confusion.

Welcome! We will gladly help you to spent your money

You will get many recommendations - here is mine

1) Do not buy Shun classic
These are not necessarily the word knives on the planet, but just simply not really worth their price. Just browse around here for more detailed opinion. I have (had) one Shun classic too and would not buy it again.

2) Bread knife
Just get a MAC bread knife and be done with it. It has long (26cm) very well shaped blade, cuts great, is fairly lightweight but the blade is still reasonably stiff. I have one and I love it.

3) Why not buying a set of knives:
The probability that you will like all of the knives is small - you probably have certain expectations and preferences how each go you new knives should look and perform. You will probably not find all that in one set

4) If you insist - You could do a lot worse than giving a Jon from JKI (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com) a call or drop an email (it may take a while for him to answers as since he is such a nice and helpful guy - he is completely overloaded by requests) and he will gladly give you advice tailored to your needs (use, care, etc.) and budget

5) Whatever knives you will choose, I would really like to point you to the direction of sharpening your own knives. 2-3 nice stones and you would be set. For most of us it is enjoyable to sharpen our (or even others) knives You will find a LOT of information on sharpening stones around here.

Enjoy the process of getting your new knives!

For sharpening, I would recommend the EdgePro. Unless you are a real expert, I doubt you can get as good an angle or as sharp an edge with stones. Yeah, yeah, I know all you experts can get a hair splitting edge on a knife in 2 minutes, but most of us don't have 10 years to practice. I don't, I'm too busy making knives.

The EdgePRO will provide great edges and poor cutters. The shoulders the system engenders will make food cutting hard unless you're continuously adapting settings.

About all the fun using the EdgePRO with Japanese knives

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-–-The-REAL-DEAL

I really appreciate the replies, folks. Since my house burned down, I'm replacing everything and I'm more than a little shopped out.

@Dave: I rather like those knives. I'm not fond of the bread knife, but luckily Matus followed you up with another recommendation. It didn't really match the others, anyway. Two questions:

1) The pricing on your screenshot is a little off from what I'm seeing. There a 10% coupon on there I don't have?
2) This may get into sharpening a bit, and/or a whole other can of worms, but does a 70/30 grind pull to one side when cutting, or is it harder to sharpen? I made an attempt to cut a watermelon with the only knife I have: a serrated single side bevel steak knife. Man that was dangerous and terrible. I was hungry!

@Matus/Tim: Definitely interested in sharpening. I was a boy scout and have fond memories of using a cheap spit stone at summer camp. I never got things razor sharp, though, and more recent attempts haven't yielded much better results. I had bought a set of 3 diamond impregnated stones (325/600/1200) a couple years ago that weren't in my house when it went, so I still have them. I couldn't keep a consistent angle when sharpening to get a good edge. I felt I just didn't have any feedback during the process for knowing when it was right and when it was wrong, so I had no way to learn and correct myself. I'm thinking of picking up a cheap 30x1 belt sander for $45 and a few varying grade belts. Then I only have to hold an angle while being relatively stationary, as opposed to repeated motions. Once I get to that point, I will definitely be back for tips.

What is up with the spine of that Ken Onion bread knife. He can't be serious with that design.:lol2:

@Dave one more time real quick, I didn't read the end of your post carefully before. I had never considered something other than a counter block. One of those fancy wooden Mag-Blok could actually do pretty well, and encourage me not to buy a block set. This is what I'm thinking about for the moment:

$130 Suisin Inox Western-Style Gyutou 9.4" (24cm) - Right
$79 Suisin Inox Western-Style Petty 5.9" (15cm) - Right
$75 Suisin Inox Western-Style Paring 3.1" (8cm) - Right
$85 Mac Bread Knife 10.5" (27cm)
$48 Mag-Block 18"

$417 plus some shipping/tax, and that's probably all I'd really need to use. I'm forgoing the long thin carving knife, thinking the break knife would actually slice into a watermelon easily and get it to the point of using a smaller knife. I'm also adding a utility knife, because sometimes a smaller, narrower blade is easier to work with.

I'm still a little wary of that 70/30 bevel (is bevel the right term here?). It seems like that's a typical Japanese knife thing, when I read around. My old Ken Onion Shun set was symmetric. Does it pull to one side? Is it especially difficult to sharpen?

About asymmetric knives:
If you're freehanding, start behind
the bevel at the lowest angle
you're comfortable with, raise the
spine little by little, verify your
progression with the marker trick
or looking at the scratch pattern,
and go on till you raise a burr.
Switch to the other side and repeat.
With this approach you won't have to matter about angles and
proportions, and you may
reestablish any existing
configuration you're fine with. And you thin a bit behind the edge to compensate for the taper.

Benuser said:

The EdgePRO will provide great edges and poor cutters.

Click to expand...

Can I nominate this to be a sticky?

icrf said:

I'm thinking of picking up a cheap 30x1 belt sander for $45 and a few varying grade belts. Then I only have to hold an angle while being relatively stationary, as opposed to repeated motions. Once I get to that point, I will definitely be back for tips.

Click to expand...

Might want to ask for tips BEFORE you go that route.

icrf said:

This is what I'm thinking about for the moment:

$130 Suisin Inox Western-Style Gyutou 9.4" (24cm) - Right
$79 Suisin Inox Western-Style Petty 5.9" (15cm) - Right
$75 Suisin Inox Western-Style Paring 3.1" (8cm) - Right
$85 Mac Bread Knife 10.5" (27cm)
$48 Mag-Block 18"

$417 plus some shipping/tax

Click to expand...

You would be the smartest guy in your zip code. (I had the Petty in the original list, don't know how it fell out)

icrf said:

I'm still a little wary of that 70/30 bevel (is bevel the right term here?). It seems like that's a typical Japanese knife thing, when I read around. My old Ken Onion Shun set was symmetric. Does it pull to one side? Is it especially difficult to sharpen?

Click to expand...

I'm not smart enough to spend time calculating angles, offsets, or other knife trigonometry. Each knife comes with bevels it likes. I do what I can to keep them that way with some periodic thinning of the shoulders. Someone told me when I got started that a consistent angle was more important that an absolute angle.

Concerning the sharpening angles and their consistency - it is all about technique and experience. The best is to start learning sharpening on some older (ideally carbon) knife. Watch some of the really well made instruction videos on youtube from our vendors. They show some really helpful tips and tricks (like the one with permanent marker).

Diamond stones cut very fast, but wear with time and leave deep scratches. And give pretty much 0 feedback (feel). Get somethinig like Beston 500, Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5000 (just to make an example, there are many good stones out there - the best are probably the ones JKI and JNS are selling under their brand name), some sort of stone holder and give it a try.

The Suisin set sounds good, probably do not need the paring knife. A cheap Victorinox parer works fine if you need one. Forget the belt sander great way to screw up your knives, get a couple whetstones watch Japanese Knife Imports sharpening tutorals paying attention to technique. He also explains what is happening & why. Freehand is not that hard to learn just takes good guidance & some practice.

Of no one mentioned this please not the 70/30 will not steer ( only if you sharpen incorrectly over a long period of time). Please don't get a belt grinder.

Thanks, everyone, for the replies (especially rami for hitting on one of my lingering curiosities).

About sharpening, I watched a lot of YT videos before when I got the diamond stones and it apparently didn't help. I just couldn't maintain a consistent angle. I'll probably go back and try again. If nothing else, I end up getting a proper whetstone and can still use the diamond plates to level it if it gets cupped.

I'm surprised at all the hate for the belt sander. I've seen a lot of YT videos of people using that successfully, too. Most of them haven't been Japanese kitchen knives, but still. My new place has garage space, and I'm looking at buying tools to build out a shop, and it seems like a reasonable addition. Lots of people use it for hobbyist knife making, not just sharpening, which is also of interest to me. That does tend to be more outdoor/hunting kind of knives.

Also, don't worry, I won't put these nice Suisin knives on the belt sander. I have a Gerber multi-tool that gets a lot of abuse, and my EDC is a Kershaw Ken Onion Leek (which contrary to his kitchen knives, is actually quite nice, I don't think you folks could convince me otherwise). I'll guinea pig that for you guys and report. If it can shave the hair off my arm when I'm done, I'm happy. That is the goal.

With that, I think I'm going to pull the trigger at Korin. I'm guessing the 10% off I saw in Dave's screenshot was because he was part of their culinary professional membership program, which I wouldn't qualify for.

Thanks a lot for all the input, everyone. You'll probably see me again before too long in another thread to talk about cutting boards and butcher block counter tops.

One more question before I buy: Korin offers "free initial sharpening services" and though I've read the page, I'm still not sure what it means. Is the factory edge for some reason unsatisfactory? How would them resharpening the blade make it easier for me to do it in the future?

Sorry to hear of the fire.

I am not any soert of knife guy, I am still learning a lot. I did want to comment based on my experience. My family does cook a lot. I cook dinners for myself (I mean cook, not heat up) 3-4 nights a week, and the wife and I make Friday and Saturday nights a cooking event. We usually try and find a menu that is challenging to us and spend several hours prepping and cooking. It's just what we enjoy doing. We try very much to pair our menus with wines.

All this being said we survived for almost 3 years with simply a 210 gyuto, a 180 santuko, and a 120 petty that came as a set (not matched set). From jck.

All I was pointing out was that if cooking is. Ot a priority in your life, then perhaps that would effect your knife selections.

I also know once I used a knife, then I figured out whether it fit my style...I am already selling ones I bought in favor of others.

I would have hated to have a set.

Factory edges are often mediocre, and sometimes downright poor. Korin's sharpening will likely give you a better OOTB edge than you would otherwise get, though I can't personally attest to their quality having never received a knife from them.

I check the box for initial sharpening when I order from Korin. A nice guy named Vincent, or Mari, the nicest lady on the internet, will give the knives a final touch up and they will all be uniform.

I appreciate the info. Order placed. Thanks a ton!

You are welcome mate . Couple of points.

Belt grinder: we don't hate belt grinders but it's much easier to make a mistake that's irreparable ( or at least significant)with it.

Sharpening: look for basic sharpening videos from Japanese knife import. They are good, it's takes much longer to sharpens cheap stainless steels than carbon steels. So that may explain your lack of success.

Ps. Excuse my bad spelling on the last post.

Besides the videos of Jon at Japanese Knife Imports, i had a nice experience with this DVD bought at Korin http://korin.com/The-Chefs-Edge-Knife-Sharpening-DVD that talks about sharpening. Good luck!

There are 2 problems with using the Harbor Freight belt grinder. First, they are way to fast at 3450 rpm. They will burn the edge in seconds unless you are extremely careful. Second, you will probably have just as much trouble holding a consistent angle with it as you do with stones - at least I did. Coupled with the high belt speed, you can ruin a knife very quickly.

And do not forget to let us know how you like your new knives once they get some use

Will do. Got a shipping notification today, so I should be able to slice into a watermelon next week before they go out of season this year. In previous years, I was on a quarter a watermelon a day habit.

Re: sharpening, I'll make sure I go through this nice playlist from JKI before attempting to sharpen anything again. What I did in my youth was a more circular motion, and what I saw when I looked up info a couple years ago was always one direction. The linear back and forth the video shows is something I hadn't tried and sounds easier to maintain an angle. Also amusing that he calls his 1000 grit stone "medium" when my three piece diamond plate set has a 1200 grit fine. I guess I was looking at more generic sharpening, not anything Japanese kitchen knife specific. Also saw the magic marker trick, which looks very useful.

And I'm not giving up on this belt grinder idea. I just promise not to subject anything nice to it.

There's 3 (I think) different grit scales. Generally this forum uses the Japanese ones, but I think there's an American grit scale where 1200 would in fact be a fine grit, equivalent to 4K or something. I'm no expert and I may be completely off base and I don't have time to fact check right now, but that could explain that.

The cool thing about Japanese Wa-Handled knives IMO is that they all look like a set. Unless you can read the Kanji, most people wouldn't realize they aren't the same. Main differences are dark or light wood handles and the color of the buffalo horn ferrule. Just match those up and they'll look like a set.

That said, if you must have exact matches, go with JKI and look into the Ginga set. Get a 270 or 240mm Gyuto, and a 150mm petty and call that a set. Add a 270-300mm suji if you want, which you can most definately use for cutting bread. I would keep a cheap suji sharpened on my most coarse stone as a bread knife. Friend of mine said there's no way it will cut a tough crusty bread, I asked him to try and he literally stared at the blade after it effortlessly cut through the loaf. I don't see the point in serrated blades personally...just too hard to sharpen for IMO little to no benefit.

icrf said:

Will do. Got a shipping notification today, so I should be able to slice into a watermelon next week before they go out of season this year. In previous years, I was on a quarter a watermelon a day habit.

Re: sharpening, I'll make sure I go through this nice playlist from JKI before attempting to sharpen anything again. What I did in my youth was a more circular motion, and what I saw when I looked up info a couple years ago was always one direction. The linear back and forth the video shows is something I hadn't tried and sounds easier to maintain an angle. Also amusing that he calls his 1000 grit stone "medium" when my three piece diamond plate set has a 1200 grit fine. I guess I was looking at more generic sharpening, not anything Japanese kitchen knife specific. Also saw the magic marker trick, which looks very useful.

And I'm not giving up on this belt grinder idea. I just promise not to subject anything nice to it.

Click to expand...

As mentioned, generally belt grinders are limited to very experienced knife makers. Main reason is that they can destroy a knife in literally seconds. Even a very coarse grit stone is a bit dangerous IMO in the hands of a novice. Get yourself a nice 1k stone and 4k stone (or combo if you like). From there you can add some felt strops with diamond pastes...this would be the easiest entry to go to get the best results. Afterwards just add stones one at a time that interest you.