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liren1

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Hi All
So after using Edge Pro for a while I'm thinking it's time to get into free hand. I've been doing free hand stropping with reasonable success so I may be ready for this.
I don't have a cheap carbon knife for experimentation, I have a Tojiro Senkou (a.k.a. Flash) bought on a whim as the first Japanese knife that I hardly use now, I can make that one my guinea pig.
So the question that's been asked a thousand times already, which stones to get ?
I'm not on a 'budget' as such, so I can get anything within reason (synthetic, not going to spend $800 on a natural stone) , and so I can start with good stones that will last a long time instead of getting cheap ones and then buying again.
So I'm guessing I need 3 or 4 ? One low grit (300-500?) one 1000, one 2000-3000 and one higher, or I can settle for 3 stones ?
So here are some of my requirements
I live in the UK, so buying in the US is probably out - the sources I know of are Eden Webshop (Naniwa), there is a shop I found here that sells Ohishi (chopping block co), or I can take one of JNS's offerings. I assume there are others.
Also - I would like stones that don't require hours of soaking, if there are splash and go then great, if not, then maybe 15-30 minutes. I read somewhere that Beston 500 requires a day or so (is that true?), so maybe not suitable ?
I watched some of the sharpening videos, and will watch them again before I start, any further advice is welcome.
So what to get ?
Thanks for any suggestion !
 
Eden 240/800 and 2000/5000 combos are inexpensive and will serve you well. Or push the boat out and get the Naniwa 800/5000. Technique is far more important than tools.
 
Being in Europe does change the picture a bit, but I'm sure you can get the "standard" recommended set easily enough if you look around, the stones are all Japanese for the most part.

The usual recommendation is a coarse, medium, and fine stone, and several vendors here in the US sell a Beston 500, an Imanishi Bester 1000 or 1200 stone, and a Suehiro 5000 grit as a starter set, usually with a stone holder and a couple other bits. That is a very nice set of stones, although I personally use a King Deluxe 300 and a Bester 700 instead of the Beston 500. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, it really doesn't matter, but I don't like jumping from the 300 to the 1200, takes too long and I prefer to draw the initial burr on the 700 rather than the 300 when doing major work -- just sharpening I start on the 1200.

This set should be in the 150 Euro range, maybe higher if there are taxes we don't pay here, but hardly a fortune, and should get most knives up to speed.

Bester stones take a few minutes to soak up from bone dry, not more than 20 or so, and it takes weeks for them to dry completely. I keep mine in a pan of water most of the time. Naniwa Chosera or SuperStones can usually be used as splash and go stones if you prefer that, and the Suehiro Rika 5000 is a splash and go.

For a practice knife, check out flea markets and used items stores, there will be a sea of discarded and junk cutlery in there, and if you fish around a bit you can surely find a decent quality carbon steel knife of a decent grade "german" chef's knife. Good carbon steel will be purplish black or dark brown, light, and quite stiff, and good knives are typically fairly thin (after all, hard, stiff, springy steel allows a thinner but stronger blade). Brass riveted hardwood handles are a good sign. Henkels, Wustof, and Victorinox are names to look for.

Or you can just go to a restuarant supply house, I'm sure there are some around, and get a Victorinox Fibrox knife. These are sold here for large kitchen use, and while they are hardly exotic super quality knives, they are dirt cheap for what you get and make excellent practice knives. High quality but not super hard steel, decent handles, nice design, and cheap enough to not worry about learning on. Sharpen quickly, so you can play around with bevel angles and so forth without spending an eternity, and if you do bugger it up beyond easy repair, you are only out a couple pints of beer.

Peter
 
I would say 3 stones should give you all you need. Grits something like 300-5000, 1000-2000, 5000-6000.

If you have the budget I would say - get something from JKI or JNS I had a few stones from both and they are simply excellent. I would find it hard to pick one over the other and find it save to say making the choice based on your locations (shipping stones can be expensive or sometimes import taxes get in the way) or particular stone preferences.

For example - my stone setup is JKI Gesshin 400, 2000 and 6000. But I also have JNS 300 and have briefly used JNS 800 and 6000. All very nice stones. If you decide to go with JNS than it would make sense to ask Maksim for an advice, but something like 300, 1000 and 6000 would work like a charm, as well as just 800 and the red synthetic Aoto. Yes - I actually believe that those two stones would be all one needs unless you want to make some heavy re-profileing.

What I would like to point out is choosing between splash&go and soaking stones. It is not the soaking time that may get in the way (I do not think that any stone really needs more than 30 minutes), but also the drying time. I have done some tests of my own. A S&G stone will dry within 24 hours. Soaking stone will need 4-5 days under the same conditions.

Cheap carbon knife would be best for learning as cheap stainless (I do not imply here that you Tojiro is one) is much tougher to learn on, as softer stainless gives poor feedback and is sometimes really hard to deburr. If you do want to get a cheap carbon knife, than just look at Buho (Takeo Murata) from https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk or just post a WTB thread in classifieds.
 
Wow thanks, a lot of advice coming very quickly!
Yeah, I know technique is most important, and it will probably take me a while, I'm basically a home cook, so my knives get to be used only so much.
To make things easier, I will probably contact Maksim and see what he can offer, I'd rather not buy from the US at the moment, I'll wait until I visit there, hopefully next year some time.
So I understand 3 is what I should be looking for.
The Tojiro was not cheap, in fact too expensive for what it is , especially here in the UK, but that's spilled milk, and no use kicking my self over this. I suppose I can find a cheap carbon knife somewhere or buy the Murata.
I actually have a CCK 1303 cleaver, would that be a good knife to practice on ?
 
Get a basic carbon knife. A simple Robert Herder (again, with knivesandtools.co.uk), a French carbon (with theinvisibleedge.co.uk), or an Opinel "au carbone".
Starting freehanding with a Tojiro VG-10 is asking for troubles and frustration because you'll have to go thru a whole progression to get rid of the burr, and every extra stone will cause all kind of complications.
As with a carbon steel, you may get a good edge with one stone only, and so you may concentrate your attention on the basics: raising the burr, chasing it and getting rid of it.
 
A very cheap stainless knife (or carbon if you have any carbon knives) would be good investments. The stones IMO are less important when beginning as far worrying about ruining what you have. Generally they can be lapped easily, whereas an expensive knife could be difficult to fix if you mess it up.

Just get cheap knives of the same style you want to learn to sharpen (a $50 single bevel yanagiba can be had to practice on if you want to get into yanagi's).
 
Don't think I will start with yanagis just now.
I'll watch the various sharpening videos again after I get the stones, I just hope I don't develop bad habits. Wish I could go to one of those sharpening lessons offered by people here.
 
Youtube works pretty well for me, but generally it's all about the feeling with freehand stones, which you just can't get without experience.

A Sharpie works wonders by painting the edge and seeing if your angle is correct. Slow work, but a good learning aide. It's usually recommended for sharpening straight razors, but I use it on a new knife from time to time to see how the edge hits my stones.
 
liren1 said:
Don't think I will start with yanagis just now.
I'll watch the various sharpening videos again after I get the stones, I just hope I don't develop bad habits. Wish I could go to one of those sharpening lessons offered by people here.
Click to expand...

As Droshi says, it's all about experience.

As someone who only started freehand sharpening about 9 months ago, the lessons I learnt are:

1. Frequency is key to building up muscle memory and achieving a basic consistency. One of my mistakes was to only sharpen every month or so. Sometime around easter I sharpened 3 weekends in a row, that's when I got my 'eureka' moment.

2. Learn to identify the burr. This really is key. The burr tells you which part of the edge has been sharpened. Gaps in the burr tells you which parts of the knife you have NOT sharpened.

3. Don't go too acute with the angle. I was so worked up over what angle that I ended up thinning one of my knives, and getting frustrated that there was no burr !!!!!

I also found that splash and go stones are more conducive to sharpening as I didn't have to faff around soaking stones.

As stated previously, use an old cheap knife, or buy a cheap one to practice on to build up your confidence and consistency.

In 6 months time you'll be wondering what all the fuss is about.

Good luck, and have fun.
 
osakajoe said:
Far more better than tools??? Don't listen to that guy. Tools are very important
Click to expand...

I'm guessing maybe he meant that some people will tend to go out and spend a couple grand on a set of natural stones before they even learn to use a synthetic. Personally I'd rather learn with a cheap knife and a relatively inexpensive stone. Although I'd agree you can push your budget on the stone and likely not mess it up unless you drop it. Even then some of the synthetics can be OK dropped, but most stones would probably be damaged. Short of that, major damage due to improper technique isn't that likely. Even on a Naniwa SS stone that's like rubber, too high an angle you can fix pretty quickly. It could even be argued as a decent training aide.
 
As the OP is new to handsharpening it's important to acquire precise movements and correct errors immediately as they occur. That's why I suggested both basic carbons and Chosera stones. Basic carbons have a low abrasion resistance, Choseras are very fast cutters and provide a good feedback. Once the technique acquired one may use about any abrasive.
 
Why do tools matter? Well everyone in this forum knows tools matter or else they wouldn't be recommending good knives. Stones and knives are tools.

When it comes to sharpening buying a cheap stone is like buying a cheap bike instead of a bike with gears and what not. Both will get you from point a to b, but one will get you there much easier and faster.

Let's take ceramic whetstones for example. There are lots of different brands and types out there. Cheap to more expensive. Buy a cheap stone and you will be spending lots of time sharpening. They tend not to cut well and you end up forming bad habits because you start to apply way to much pressure ruining your nice even blade and wearing out your stone.

Buy a good ceramic stone and you can concentrate on technique because the stone is cutting and doing its job allowing you to focus on sharpening techniques.

A good stone cuts your time spent sharpening by a lot and allows you to put a proper edge on your knife while strengthening your sharpening techniques.

Most people only buy one stone, or one brand, and then go and recommend that stone to others. When they have never tried various types of stones and can't even tell the difference from a cheap stone and a gods stone.

I have about 30-40 different stones at my disposal and can tell you that tools do matter. May it be what knife, stone, scissors, computers, machinery, etc. you are using.


With that being said, if yore looking for decent splash and go stones. I recommend the naniwa super stones for a medium and high grit stone. They are resin bonded so soft but splash and go. The do a good job when sharpening your carbon steel as well as AUS8,10 and vg10 steel. I don't recommend a lower grit super stone since they are too soft and don't perform well for that job.

So something like this

Naniwa super stones #1000 and #5000. With a low 400 grit stone
 
Just to add that in Europe the fullsized Chosera 800 and 3k together now cost €100, shipping and taxes included.
 
I think the learning curve will be in developing muscle memory. After using Edge Pro for a while I think (hope?) that I've at least learned to identify a burr when I get one, although I'm still not sure when I use a higher grit stone - like 4k (I have the Shapton Glass).
As for which stones to get - as a general philosophy in life I agree with Osakajoe - and I can quote my grandfather who once told me : 'I'm not rich enough to buy cheap stuff'. I usually prefer high quality that I can afford (within reason and intended use), and buy it once, and that's true for anything - from hiking equipment to television sets.
So I will contact Maksim for his stuff, or get the Chosera from Eden Webshop, or get one (or two) from each, for the variety...

About finding the correct angle - it took me a little while - but I learned how to do that when stropping by changing the angle slightly until I feel it start to push into the strop - is the technique similar ?
 
I have both the Eden stones and the Naniwa SS I mentioned. Both are perfectly adequate tools for sharpening kitchen knives for their intended purpose. The Naniwa is better though, no argument there.


I think it was Murray Carter in one of his DVDs sho said that it was "99% technique and 1% tools". But what would he know about Japanese knives eh?
 
Timthebeaver said:
I have both the Eden stones and the Naniwa SS I mentioned. Both are perfectly adequate tools for sharpening kitchen knives for their intended purpose. The Naniwa is better though, no argument there.


I think it was Murray Carter in one of his DVDs sho said that it was "99% technique and 1% tools". But what would he know about Japanese knives eh?
Click to expand...
Murray Carter isn't a novice.
 
liren1 said:
About finding the correct angle - it took me a little while - but I learned how to do that when stropping by changing the angle slightly until I feel it start to push into the strop - is the technique similar ?
Click to expand...
Some people can feel the right angle. Great, but what about microbevels, burrs and damages? It's safer to use the marker trick (see Jon Broida's videos). You don't sharpen an edge, you're sharpening a blade. Please consider the entire configuration. I start clearly behind the edge, anywhere, with the blade as flat as possible on the stone. Then, little by little, I raise the spine and come nearer and nearer to the very edge. Verify the progress with the marker trick or by looking at the scratch pattern. Once I've raised a burr I now: the very edge has been reached. That is the moment to repeat the same process on the other side.
With this approach you may reconstitute any double-bevelled edge without considering angles, proportions or counting strokes and you'll have thinned a bit behind the edge and avoided the shoulder formation that's so characteristic of EdgePRO-edges.
 
liren1 said:
About finding the correct angle - it took me a little while - but I learned how to do that when stropping by changing the angle slightly until I feel it start to push into the strop - is the technique similar ?
Click to expand...

There are different techniques out there and you'll just find one that works for you. The trick you used for finding angle with stropping will work exactly the same with stones (providing you'll be gentle enough not to dig into stones).

I think if you watch Jon's sharpening videos, you'll get the basic idea http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB

Sharpening isn't a rocket science so you could learn it either way, with cheap stainless knives and sandpaper, or with carbon knives and naturals stones… or with cinder block if you care to beat Murray Carter :)
 
I would only say that Herder carbon knives are super easy to sharpen (I have the K2 model on loan right now) - as they are VERY thin and apparently not hardened as high as the number HRC60 would suggest. If you go with Herder then just pick something from their 'K' line.

No one cares to beat Murray Carter :p
 
The K-series by Herder are nice but a bit expensive. I do believe they reach the HRC60. Their edge retention is just as good or as bad as that of a Misono Swedish. Not that it matters though for the ease of sharpening.

About the Misono Swedish, to illustrate the freehanding procedure I proposed: I've sharpened my 240 gyuto this morning. No big deal, no big thinning, no full progression. Starting on a Chosera 2k, stropping on split leather, deburring on a 5k, stropping and deburring on the White-Snow 8k. Started as said somewhere behind the edge, at the lowest angle I'm fine with at that moment. It happened to be some 8 degree. I ended up with 16 degree on the right side and 24 degree on the left one while on the 8k.
 
I think I'll get a Sabatier - they're nice knives, carbon, soft enough, and reasonably priced.
An expert (e.g. Carter) will always be able to do more with a given equipment - and since I'm not at a McGuivre level yet where I can make a stone using a rubber band, superglue and packet of tampons and produce an edge that would put old Master Doi to shame, I'll probably stick with the good stuff and learn on that ....
 
I guess you're aware they come out of the box with a terrible edge. That might be your case both an advantage and an inconvenience.
 
I heard they're not consistent, and that sometimes they come ok, whatever happens it will be good practice.
 
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